Devs: “we’ll see how Sym’s beam plays out”

General Discussion
108

That’s not true. Symmetra’s wind-up, a relic from an actually intelligent design decision which was meant to act as a counterweight to high damage lock-on, is still there. However, since the lock-on was lost, it now serves as additional punishment for getting less than 100% accuracy.

The beam starts at 60 per second, then 120, then 180 per second. Let’s compare this to another very high accuracy requirement character: McCree.

Assume Symmetra and McCree both have 100% accuracy. They both spend 10 seconds firing at targets.

Symmetra would deal 60 + 60 + 120 + 120 + 6 x 180 = 1440
McCree would deal 10 x 140 = 1400

At this point they’re roughly equal.

Let’s assume they both have 50% accuracy. Again, ten seconds of firing at targets.

Symmetra would deal 4 x 30 + 4 x 60 + 2 x 90 = 540
McCree would deal 10 x 70 = 700

McCree, at 50% accuracy, loses half his DPS.
Symmetra loses 62.5% of her DPS.

This means that in order for Symm’s M1 to match McCree’s, she needs to have considerably higher accuracy than him.

This is NOT accounting for the fact that Symmetra’s beam is considerably shorter range (12m vs. 20m), the fact that Symmetra’s much higher tickrate makes it exceptionally weak against armour, and the fact that McCree’s weapon can get headshots for double damage.

The accuracy requirement for Symmetra’s M1 is definitely a character issue, not a player issue. No matter how good your tracking is, you -will- deal much better damage with McCree, -unless- your accuracy is legitimately 100% and you are -always- in range, and McCree -never- headshots.

The wind-up is a drawback for a feature that is no longer there, and it has a severe negative impact on damage output for players with less than 100% accuracy.

4 Likes
109

Every single reply to my post has been in reference to the value-accuracy ratio. That the gun requires high aim and gives low value. My point, as I’ve made multiple times is that it’s the value that should be changed. There are harder weapons than Sym’s in the game, but they give enough value to justify the accuracy requirement.

That’s my point

110

70 ammo at a consumption of 7 ammo a second.

Even if I did not play her (which I do play her and play along side her in my comp trio) the math is easy.

111

In order to do that though, the damage would have to be brought on par with Reaper’s shotguns, so it’d need to go up to over 280.

Even then, the accuracy requirement is going to be a crippling issue because it is paired with a lack of headshot capabilities and short range on a largely immobile and defenseless character. 10 seconds of firing at targets is achievable for McCree, not for Symmetra.

The wind-up just has no reason to be there.

112

Even if you want to remove the wind up, or increase the range, or increase the damage, go ahead. But making her easier to play doesn’t reward skill - as a competitive game should - it rewards picking the character.

113

Aim isn’t the be all and end all skill ceiling for a character.

2 Likes
114

No, it improves the effort/reward ratio. Currently, her M1 has the single highest effort value, but one of the lowest reward values. It’s too skewed and it needs to be fixed.

EDIT: And, as the person above me says, aim isn’t the one and only skill in the game. Tactical competence is a big part of the game too, and was the big skill requirement of old Symmetra’s M1.

115

In the game? No.

Not sure if I completely agree with this either, but I don’t feel strongly enough about it to argue.

Yes, but I think that making her easier to use is the wrong way to go about it.

Being the only major mechanical skill, and the most flexible given weapon types, aim is probably the most major player factor that decides whether a character is difficult or easy to play, since all characters require awareness/game sense, communication, ability tracking, positioning etc.

The 3 heroes that I see over and over with people claiming they are no skill (whether or not I agree will not be discusses) are: Brig (AoE cleave damage + passive heals), Mercy (lock-on beams) and Doomguy (forgiving, albeit buggy hitboxes).

And now some of the characters that reportedly are some of the hardest to play (again, my opinion isn’t being entered)
Widow (slow fire-rate, reliant on consistent Headshots) and Ana (also slow firerate, projectile/hitscan options).

So, yes, aiming isn’t the only skill, but it’s generally the decider between easy or difficult.

Sym 1.0 and 2.0 were only exceptions because of how situational or down-right lackluster her kit was. And people still complained about her gun all the time.

116

I think we’re getting off topic.

117

“Finally I am fully charged!”
Headshotted by hanzo

3 Likes
118

Absolutely yes. There’s no other weapon in the game that requires perfect aim so constantly. It is very narrow, it’s hard to see and gauge, it requires close combat, where enemy hitboxes will move proportionally faster… It is the hardest weapon in the game to use.

People argue that Widowmaker’s rifle is the hardest to use in the game, but imagine having Widowmaker’s rifle, except it only deals full damage if you first hit two more shots.

This is not counting the drastic difference in tactical requirement with Symmetra being melee range on a no-mobility, no survivability hero, whereas Widowmaker’s rifle is on a light mobility, no survivability hero.

2 Likes
119

When I think about characters who put fear into me on the field of battle, Symmetra is the absolute last on the list.

That’s sad, really. Even AS Symmetra, I’m not concerned with the enemy Symmetra. I know what she can do, and I know how to shut her down.

Every other character in the roster (yes, even Mercy) is something I have to be concerned with. Each character is different, but they all have enough capacity for damage to cause Symmetra great harm in the time it takes for Symmetra to cause appreciable damage to them.

I say appreciable damage, because it’s not lethal damage, where as the other characters in the roster can cause lethal damage in the same amount of time, usually twice over.

Taking that into account, I don’t think it’s out of bounds to request firepower that is at least on par with the rest of the cast.

That having been said, my suggestion is that she be given a linear ramp up of her weapon, rather than stages, if a ramp up mechanic is absolutely necessary. Personally, I don’t believe a ramp up mechanic is necessitated any longer, due to the lack of lock on with her primary attack. Previously, this mechanic was employed to give the opponent sufficient time to react to being locked on to, for the purpose of evading the lock on, or dumping abilities to get out of harms way.

This is no longer required, as her beam no longer locks on. The beam is less of a threat than a projectile or hitscan weapon. It is easily jinked and avoided. It has no ability to apply critical hits. It is only threatening at its top charge level, and even then with armor mitigation and a lack of health pool by its wielder, is not considered much of a threat.

I don’t think it is unfair to ask for a characters weapon to be seen as formidable at all times.

For those of you who would argue that there are other characters in the cast that have less damaging weapons, I implore you to also look at the role they fill, and the way that their damage is distributed, and any negative effects on the target they have.

5 Likes
120

If she could pump out more damage on the first charge she would be more formidable. As she stands she is weak af.

1 Like
121

Shield Bash = 6 Meters
Standard Attack = 5 Meters

Walk forward speed = 6mps
Walk backward speed =5mps

1 meter is made up rather quickly, and then Brig is in standard weapons range in .5 seconds.

3 Likes
122

Still waiting to see how it plays out…

2 Likes
123

It’s played out. :smiley:

2 Likes
124

we need to address this ASAP

125

Nah, let’s leave it for another 2 weeks.

126

We asked them to address the slow charge and they did. Hope this gets a stealth tick rate fix also.

127

After this change from 2s to 1.6s I think that the beam (on squishies only not on armored enemies) finally counts as a weapon that people can use the “git gud” argument for. Although I personally consider the cutoff rate for getting decent damage is set a bit too high, it is finally perhaps set at an acceptable level when compare it to the old 2.0 beam.

I still find it abominable though that armor affects it so badly. And I consider it atrocious that even the best Sym needs to track better for longer than dps on any other hero… but those are arguments for another day.