Delete Supports and Tanks in OW2

None of these were original default/meta like 2 Winstons/2 Lucios. It wasnt until the 1 of each hero per team patch that it was changed.

Really not looking into discussing supports current state in OW2. As I said they are work in progress.

The buffs don’t make up for the damage of losing tank.

And CCs do not keep damage in check. The existent of CCs, especially stun and hack, contribute to how fast a tank can be melted since they can’t do crap.

But healing mechanic itself is already as easy as can be except for like Ana and Bap. How much effort was there to begin with? To attach a beam to a teammate, to heal them with harmony orb or crossfade/inspire, to spray healing mist?

How do you make Mercy’s healing effort 25% less for healing 25% less in-combat?

True, which is why shotgun has very limited lethal range.

Going back to Moira. 120 dps with forgiving aim could work, if
1)range is reduced by half (at least)
2)self-heal is removed
3)ammo added

120 dps beam with 20m range and forgiving aim, with unlimited ammo and self-heal. Yeah forget about it. Moira’s beam is already overloaded for a basic attack.

High fire rate doesn’t mean forgiving aim. Those weapons have built-in drawback like spread that prevent aim from getting full value past a certain distance. I agree that Doom’s abilities have too generous hitbox. I’ve actually always had that opinion, including his CCs being bad for the game. And yes, same opinion for Ball too as he’s basically just a tank Doom. Genji’s dash is a measly 50 dmg. Lucio’s boop is similar hitbox with half damage but half the CD. Brigitte’s bash damage is gonna be increased as well. These low damage abilities with CD are not the primary way of doing damage.

Like I said above. Moira can have 120 dps with forgiving aim if she gives up other strengths of her beam. Simply increase damage to 120 dps won’t happen, and not because of “Blizzard wants to make supports trash” but simply because that’s just bad deisgn.

So I just read the QnA on reddit today and the devs actually said supports are still very impactful, more so than in 6v6 especially low mobility heroes like Zen and Ana. The dev actually specifically pointed this out because someone asked them the same thing you asked - mobility heroes vs supports. Devs said supports actually have an easier time because of the lack of off-tank.

Also, the in-combat healing penalty is off the table after testing, so the whole freaking out about that was just stupid. It seems like supports won’t need too much change or major rework for OW2.

No, it doesn’t clearly show they want supports to be useless. Their playtest data showed different. Read the reddit thread from today/yesterday.

Sure it is more efficient, but playing better as at team doesn’t mean “play better as a team to beat Tracer.” It means “play better as a team to beat their team.”

They reason they do not solve the problem of Tracer or any one hero with just one person is because enemy is also playing as a team with a composition that enables Tracer and you can’t solve that problem alone.

Brigitte was stupid broken for this reason since she could basically beat dive comp by herself, and by that I don’t mean she can 1v6 dive comp, but that you can put her in whatever comp and dive would be ineffective against that comp.

  1. no, having a dps gun on him means he’s very flexible and can help confirm kills.
  2. his kit is not low value. Regen burst and lamp are good abilities.

50 damage
Almost twice the range
Lower CD

The lower CD and increased range are particularly useful for giving Brigitte a lot more mobility and flexibility and space control. Yeah I think it will be a very good ability even against mobile heroes. Probably even better than the current version.

No it isn’t. The flail remains a reliable weapon vs mobile heroes because of the large hitbox.

When being „plat“ becomes synonym of inferior and unworthy…
This dude doesn’t know that some devs are plat and gold themselves and that the majority of them are below masters.
Being plat does not mean not understanding the game! There are many factors that contribute to what rank a person get. And even Bottom 500 Bronze players should have their opinions respected!

I think that’s the point.

Maybe the blizzard apples don’t fall very far from the WOW tree.

I think I may have the answer - so game looks different from “Call of Duty, but with heroes”, at least from outside.

Once there was attempt to make CoD into something like that - Advanced Warfare, if recall correctly - but for some reason players didn’t like that version.

then what are you doing in this thread that’s literally about supports and tanks in OW2? =.=

recent play tests vids suggest otherwise.

the point made was how damage is further being increased in dps to compensate the loss of cc.

except that logic falls flat when you consider the fact that healing isn’t excessively strong now. if the effort:value ratio is fine (approx) rn (esp when you consider their sustained nature that locks them out of other actions), then quite evidently maintaining the current effort while decreasing the value simply is not justifiable, fun nor balanced.

I repeat:

and heck 120dps isn’t all that high. again, sombra rn deals 160dps and that’s considered low for dps. 120dps isn’t even comparable to shotgun level burst or damage. reaper has self heals alongside his burst shotguns that deal 240dps and kills in 1s. a sustained 120dps beam, even if it is wider than most ranged hitscans and even if it has self heal (albeit lower rate), is obvs worse.

you sure do love ignoring the point being raised.

Geoff:
Initially we were worried that supports without mobility to escape might be weak in this environment, but so far we’ve actually seen Zen/Ana being very strong instead of weak, because of the nature of their offensive capabilities in a 5v5 environment.

you mean the 1 hero with perma global damage boost and the other with anti which will have further less counterability in 5v5 due to less tanks and how supports literally lack counterabiltiy against anti debuff and combined they can go full kamikaze offensive and 1 team to kill the other before their supports die wins? gee I wonder why they’re more important and why nothing was said about all the other supports /s

and heck they didn’t even address the question regarding counterability against mobility in OW2.

they also said that that wasn’t true in scenarios involving sombra (which there’s literally no reason why other flankers wouldn’t be able to achieve the same scenario as plenty of flankers are as mobile if not more mobile) or involving snipers (which also there’s literally no reason other ranged hitscans and ranged pseudo hitscans won’t achieve the same scenario as they’d use the same sightlines), which basically span a largely majority of team compositions.

yet they did say they’re going to do more targeted number nerfs instead and again, the in-combat healing penalty of 25% is an indication of how much they want to nerf.

what they claim shallowly as to what they feel or think about balance is much less information and less valuable information compared to actual playtests shown publicly like the vids.

this is the same balance team that claimed infinite tp brought more opportunities when it objectively didn’t. their shallow claims mean very little.

except regardless none of that supports your argument that “just aim better” to deal with mobility without any tools that are more lenient is a reasonable solution.

in fact what you’re saying there is still quite tangential to the point I’m making.
i.e. even if you’re playing and picking as a team to deal with a hypermobility hero-compatible comp (i.e. likely dive comp), what would you pick, draconian aim heroes like widow, zen, etc. or heroes that have more tools that directly counter mobility with more lenient aim like mccree with his stun, brig with her stun, lucio with his lenient aim boop, etc.

and people, pros, GM, etc. simply pick the latter kind even when playing together and in a “playing as a team, counter them as a team” mindset —> showing that “just aim better” simply isn’t a reasonable solution to mobility counterability (unless we’re talking really low amounts of mobility).

if healing numbers are such that it still somehow matters but obvs significantly lower than current, it means bap has to spend longer healing to achieve the desired amount of sustain give the sustained nature of his heals —> much less window of opportunity to have uptime to use a dps gun.

regen burst is healing which is getting hard nerfed.
and what makes you think they’re not going to nerf lamp just as hard if not harder?
what makes you think bap isn’t going to be using lamp a lot more selfishly for self defense in context of 5v5 with less peels, offense and mobility creep?

the necessary threat for “space control” largely comes from her stun (as quite clearly her damage is :put_litter_in_its_place: and she’s got nothing else in her kit that’d be scary enough for enemies to respect her space). if that goes, so does the large portion of her space control. esp when you further consider how the majority of things outrange her which that bash’s mobility defs isn’t going to compensate for.

ah yes a 3~3.6s TTK flail with 6m range is totally going to be so meaningful against heroes with longer range, higher mobility and much faster burst on you /s

Yet ur discussing, on a post, made about supports in their current state of OW2.

Not only every single point u made on this thread was moot, u condraticed yourself like 70 times and then just admitted u just dont care about the discussion of the state of roles in ow2.

Go play fortnite instead

I hope they dont. I like tanks and supports, they make the game unique. To be honest, I wish they kept making the game more unique. For example, letting torb throw armor again would be awesome.

There is no indication qpc is returning gif ow2

Small amounts of damage mitigation can go a long way. Remember, the idea of damage mitigation is to give your team time to heal up while pushing or retreating. It’s really not about the numbers of dmg blocked vs damage dealt. It’s about blocking the burst at pivitol moments.

I staunchly disagree. Dps were substantially worse back then. And tanks were, as a result, substantially tankier.

The problem is the dps power creep. Nobody would care about weaker tanks if dps sidnt melt them instantly. The whole game needs a dmg reductiinm

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there reddit AMA today

and from internal testing dev said support are the most impactfull role in OW2, even more impactfull compared to OW1

someone ask: what was your thought process behind adding in the 25% healing reduction for the first four seconds (or however long it was), even if you aren’t keeping it in.

Were supports really that busted in play tests that you tried without it? If so, can you give us some reasonable insight on how you are planning to solve this issue in a way that wouldn’t be a hard nerf to all support heroes?

DEV JOSH - What we’ve found from our internal playtesting is that generally support heroes have become the most impactful role by a wide margin with overall less incoming damage on the field and with the reduction of a tank, fewer high health pool targets to try and keep up. This led to the average time to kill becoming much higher and many fights stalling out longer than we’d like. Not only healing output but utilities like Mercy Resurrect, Ana Sleep Dart/Biotic Grenade, Zenyatta Discord, etc are even more impactful in a 5v5 world.

The general approach was to reduce healing output by some amount, but we don’t really know what that amount is on an individual level. A little peak behind the scenes for game dev: The blanket passive heal reduction with a new concept of being “in-combat” is a shortcut for us as designers to find an approximate value of what it should be changed by since to adjust the value from playtest to playtest, we only have to change that one number rather than edit every healing script value individually. The reason for the “in-combat” rule was mainly because we already know from earlier tuning in Overwatch’s history that when healing is too low (Mercy/Zen/Lucio especially), it’s annoying to try and heal large health pool tanks between fights. We’ve considered adding a bonus heal multiplier to the Tank role passive, but it also contributes to the issue of fights stalling out as mentioned above. It could still happen in some form though.

The op doesn’t read like the start of a discussion.

Also, when I first responded to you I also wasn’t discussing the current state of OW2, but your design philosophy of Moira or what “standard of shooter” is. And then it kind of went way off track to the current state of supports in OW2.

Not according to geoff goodman.

You said dps are all getting more burst because of CC removal, but that is not true. Not every dps hero does burst damage and among those that do, CC never reduced their damage output. Widow, Pharah, Echo, Junkrat, Hanzo don’t need to worry about CC.

Irrelevant now since the healing penalty is going to or has already been removed.

Again according to geoff, it isn’t that bad for them, at least Zen/Ana, so maybe they don’t need to be compensated, at least not too much, if any.

Not sure which support is getting hard nerfed for healing. Maybe your information is outdated.

It’s not just numbers. Genji’s 138 dps was considered super op.

160 dps is actually very good damage but because of spread and aim requirement, real dps is lower than that. We know aim is a huge factor, that’s why many supports find Moira’s 50 dps or Brigitte’s 60 dps much more attractive than Zen’s 120-150 dps with no fall off nor spread.

Reaper, like Tracer can only get close to their potential max dps when very close to target. And of course none of them can heal. Doesn’t matter that supports have to give up healing to do dps. You know dps would be broken if they have an alternate fire for healing even if you make it so they can’t do both at the same time.

That point being "give supports dps (or close to dps) level of damage but they get to keep their healing and utilities. I didn’t ignore it. I disagreed with it.

No, I mean two support heroes that were playtested. It seems you were referring to specific support heroes when you talked about how supports are going to be useless and what not. Don’t worry. Blizzard will get to them. They will be playtested and get changes accordingly.

And they did address it. It was less of an issue because there’s less pressure with one fewer tank diving on them.

And they also implied Sombra is getting nerfed (work in progress), and vs sniper it’s positioning issue. Now, because it is, again, a work in progress, snipers might also get nerfed if the lack of shields allow them to dominate too much.

Sure, doesn’t mean the targeted number nerf will have overall the same effect as 25% in-combat nerf. They didn’t think Sombra was buffed too much. Playtest showed they’re wrong. It will be the same for healing numbers change.

Maybe you think their claim is shallow, but virtually claiming “supports will be useless except being food” is a hyperbole that should be completely ignored.

My argument wasn’t aim better. I said pros don’t rely on stun to counter Tracer.

In the original dive comp Lucio (good vs an incoming dive with a lenient aim mild CC attack) replaced Zen (extremely vulnerable to dive with no CC), and this was because Zen made the team stronger, even though Zen is individually weaker to dive. Also, Widow replaced Genji. Like I said, pros don’t play the game in terms of how to counter a hero, but how to counter a team.

“Hypermobility” is not a problem. Individual heroes MAY be, and so far, the problematic hero is really only Tracer, not Genji not Doom not Echo not Sombra.

Good thing is Tracer is not a problem for majority of the players due to the fact that it’s hard to AIM as her and hard to take advantage of that mobility with 150 hp. What I’m trying to say is she sucks in the hands of most players, the casual players, that’s probably why she has long stayed the same.

Ok, so? Then spend more time healing if that’s better for the team. Spend time doing damage when it is better for the team. Like how it is right now.

There’s just too much false premise and assumption in your argument.

We don’t know what kind of nerfs there will be, or how hard.

No, the range and damage coupled with whipshot is going to give her space control. 10-12m (“almost twice the range”) reach for unmissable 50 damage, swing that unmissable flail once or twice and flankers have to back out because the whipshot is likely to kill them at this point.

Not sure how much lower is the “much reduced cooldown” but let’s just assume it’s 1-2s, which puts it at 5-6s CD. Likely to use twice in a single combat for a solid 100 damage.

With the increased bash range you are much more likely to land bash on a hero that’s whipped away, whereas now you pretty much have disengaged from the fight after using whipshot unless the enemy chooses to engage you again, or he was whipped to a wall.

It’s disappointing that you can’t see how much stronger Brigitte might be with these changes because of your overreliance on stun. The mobility aspect of it has been much increased and that alone is gonna make her a lot better in many ways. Actually I can see it getting nerfed already because of how strong those changes can make Bash.

Yes, that’s one of the reasons why people pick her over Zen. Much more resistant to burst, in-combat self-heal, reliable attack that allows player to do more damage than they would on Zen.

Their point was about how much more damage would be going around.

My point is that there will be less damage going around. Like how losing a roadhog provides nearly no mitigation and is just a sum less dmg. Like how losing a bubble (that is pretty good to be honest) is still 1 less low aim hero cooking things with 160dps.

That kinda thing.

I would laugh, if it wasn’t sad. When my utility as support will make teammates win, I would agree with that statement, but usually it’s not the case.

yet you fail to see how that “philosophy” was for the purposes and context of OW2 because this entire thread is about OW2 =.=

and according to geoff goodman apparently spiking up the downtime of a hero’s core uptime ability results in having more opportunities for that ability when it objectively doesn’t.
also according to geoff goodman apparently it’s too difficult to implement a resource or charge up mechanic for mercy res despite being an ult before and they’ve clearly used resource or charge up mechanics for other abilities.

you do realise that a damage per second increase technically still is an increase in burst right? like probably not as dramatic of an increase in burst depending on what the increase to dps is, but nevertheless is still a decrease on TTK.

and there is no reason why they won’t get a damage increase for compensation of their cc being removed or culled in the same manner of how they’re doing so for mei, sombra, etc. heck even if they replace the cc ability with another damage ability, that’s still going to increase the damage output.

bih

i.e. the direction they’re heading is still less healing and instead of global anti debuff in combat they’re just going to directly nerf healing in support kits individually.
so yes, what I said above is 100% relevant.

again, sure the in-combat anti debuff mechanic may not be going like, but it’s 25% reduction is an indication of how much healing they’re aiming to reduce.

ah yes so we’re just going to ignore all understanding of kits and gamesense just because the 1 dev said “they’re not bad” despite how all the announced changes and current kit designs which they haven’t said they’re going to redesign (and highly unlikely they will given time constraints) point to them being bad as shown by the public shown playtests /s

and genji’s got burst combos for low TTK on others. does moira for similar TTK? no. counterpoint dismissed.

except reaper and tracer can actually achieve high uptime close to the enemy with the mobility they have and can even use their mobility and sustain for dueling. that’s much less the case with moira who’s not burst damage, doesn’t have comparable mobility and any heals she can dish out is either irrelevant to the duel or is going to be nerfed and still a net negative in comparison.

i.e. my earlier and overarching point, supports have designs whereby most of their kits and gameplay design is about healing and utility uptime for the majority of their uptime. slapping on a dps gun on them without changing kit/gameplay design isn’t going to compensate nerfs on the majority of the kit elements that they’re designed to spend most of their time on. and if we are to take a dps route for them, they’re going to need something extra on top of just slapping dps guns on them.

refer to the section just above for a re-statement of my overarching point which you clearly ignored.

ah yes because the off-tanks are more mobile than the dps flankers of the game or that none of the dps are mobile /s

please read the bolded bits as you clearly didn’t.

and considering we’re talking about the same people who made havana, eichenwalde point 2 bridge area, junkertown, rialto 1st point after choke, HLC 1st point, etc., I have plenty of doubt in the claim of “it’s a positioning issue” esp in light of only have 1 tank + the tank kits are going to be more about being in the enemy’s face.

when literally all the announced changes are in the direction of making what supports do less useful and more vulnerable + actually having playtest footage showing that that is the direction they’re heading, is it really hyperbole?

again, empirically speaking they absolutely do

sigh

and quite obviously a dps gun that they can’t reasonably spend much time using isn’t going to compensate that.
keep up.

I repeat for you again:

50 + 35 +70 = 155 which’d only kill tracer who can more easily kite if not straight up escape the combo when there’s 0 stun on bash. and pretty much every other threat has more mobility and/or range for the question of “if brig is in bash range” to not matter much esp when you consider how paper her shield is on top of how shield needs to have hp in order to bash. again, there is little space control without a stun.

even right now various heroes can cover more ground in that time and/or output more damage within that time frame. what you’re pointing out here is not strength for brig.

no you wouldn’t, because whip has a range of 20m and unless you’re only ever whipping people within like <=10m or so of you, an extended bash isn’t going to reach them, let alone consider the issues regarding trying to bash into a booped target whereby the reason you booped in the first place (instead of bashing in and leaving boop to last) very likely is to disengage rather than trying to engage/engage harder. trying to justify nerfs to an ability via a scenario involving poor ability usage is not reasonable.

ah yes the “I got no points so lets serve some personal attacks with 0 logical basis”. :roll_eyes:

“resistant to burst” is correlated to “in-combat self-heal” and the latter of which is slated for nerfs as shown above :eyes:

apparently 5.4k > 10k according to you :eyes:

I haven’t seen the changes, I’ve seen Rein’s shield HP getting lowered, but to make the game more fast paced, which I kinda like. Don’t like what I saw of Mercy and the Healing in Combat thing.

Doesn’t mean that they’re catering. DPS having the most doesn’t really mean anything. It could have just been coincidental.

I wouldn’t say that DPS is the strongest role RN, and them making the role a slight better, on top of more general carry potential seems good.

They can buff Support survivability, or nerf Flankers in a way that doesn’t make them underwhelming.

The game they have isn’t set in stone, just because it might seem like DPS are being catered to, it probably won’t be like that in the future. I think that the Support changes especially are bad, but it has been pointed out and is likely to be fixed.

The REASON doesn’t change the fact that they are nerfing defense (and thereby, nerfing tanks) fairly hard.

Coincidence? It’s 100% a choice. They picked who they wanted to reveal, they revealed a DPS. It’s obviously catering–if they wanted to make supports/tanks excited, they’d have revealed a support/tank instead.

You seem to be missing the point. You’re basically like “Yeah, I agree with these changes.” But them making DPS stronger and the other two roles weaker is catering to dps. How on earth would it not be?

And what evidence do we have to support this? We have straight DPS buffs, straight support nerfs, and pretty over-all tank nerfs. We have the Devs telling us they want things to die quicker (which inherently nerfs the other two roles and buffs DPS) and telling us they are looking to make DPS more powerful.

Like, I appreciate the optimism, but all the evidence currently points to DPS catering. I’m happy to be proven wrong, but just saying “well they COULD fix it later” isn’t a very great argument. My point is, they’ve shown us a lot, and all of it points pretty hard to DPS catering.