So damage overall for dps has got down form the launch of ow1 for most heros in the original roster but supports healing has just been going up maybe thats the reason people have a provlem with supports because damage has not moved all that mych or gone down on most heros yet healing has only really gone up for support heros with every new support excluding the new one who i think if the fix his hit box and remove weapon swap time would be good fine. But i think hps need to be lowered so we can find the burst thats to high and the ones that are in a good spot
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Damage may not have gone up, but player accuracy has, resulting in more damage being dealt.
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Yes and so has their accuracy with ana and bap. Dps has gone down but hos has gone up and people wonder why dps player feel that have to use one shots because sustained dps or slow burst just cabt beat the hps in the game im thinking a universal 10 to 20% hps nerf depending on how high theit hps is then we can look at nerfing dps thats needs it like one shots and fast burst like ash
Also might make people use natural cover more
DPS mains are out of their minds You guys do damage fine on any of the DPS heroes. It’s a skill issue.
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Damage hasn’t gone up in too many cases, but there’s one less tank hero to mitigate damage, so oneshots and taking damage in general is more likely.
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Mercy - Same
Lucio - Same
Zenyatta - Same
Kiriko - Heavily nerfed
Baptiste - Same
Ana - Buff
Moira - Slight buff
Brigitte - Same
Healing hasn’t really gone up.
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Do you have examples? Only because I find these sorts of statements dubious at best (though I totally believe unintentionally so in your case, Dommici) because our memories are not really perfect usually (see yesterday’s thread about contesting in OT).
So, I’m not actually convinced damage has gone down without evidence of that claim.
Likewise for the healing claim.
No but they were op on ow1 and now they also have a passive.
I will add launch OW1 damage values were also diring the era when Mass Ressurect was the ultimate of the game’s only main healer.
But while I can agree, I think Moira, Bap, and Ana are the only supports that should have their hps looked at.
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Fake news.
They removed a second tank and didn’t lower damage even though there was two less players.
DPS were this gigs buffed going into 5v5.
Do you play this game?
Repeating it doesn’t make it true.
Removing the second tank is how they lowered damage. The dev themselves said that removing a tank revealed that most tanks deal more damage than they mitigate, and with less damage, the dev felt healing was too easy at current values. This was the very reason they were experimenting with global healing nerfs in alpha, but they canceled those plans after seeing how much players struggled to adapt to 5v5.
OP is talking about heal creep since the start of OW1, not 2. This is already known and confirmed by a dev.
To give you some perspective, the peak burst healing that two supports can now output without using ultimates is 3.8X what was possible in 2016. Yes, that’s a 280% increase. That’s not creep. It’s astronomical, and there are various support combinations that can achieve comparable numbers. So healing, and more specifically the ratio of healing to damage, has increased considerably. My personal opinion is that they both need to go down, but healing is numerically the bigger creep culprit.
Also Bap’s AoE was buffed in OW2 to provide more burst, and Brig’s RP heals were recently buffed as well. Brig can also now proc heals on SB in OW2, and I think Mercy’s self heals are now buffed too? All fine changes, but just wanted to mention them.
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Damage didn’t go up. We’re just have one fewer tank. That’s like 1000+ HP/Barrier/Armor less on a team.
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I just wanna run some numbers on that.
2016 Ana+Mercy: (60hps from Mercy + 75hps from Ana) x2 Biotic grenade +100 biotic grenade = 370 hps
2023 Ana+Bap: (77hps Bap launcher + 150hps Bap Regen Burst +90hps Ana) x1.5 Biotic grenade +100 = 575.5 hps
2023 Ana+Moira: (70hps Moira + 65hps Moira Orb + 90hps Ana) x1.5 Biotic grenade +100 = 437.5 hps
I don’t know where you got 3.8x from, 1.5x seems closer for 2016. Still a big increase. Still don’t know why they changed Bap’s Regen Burst, though. It was weird then, and is weird now.
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The problem isn’t whether they do damage or not, it’s whether they feel they do damage. Half the tanks are indestructible as long as both supports are alive. Lots of DPS focus the tank and get very frustrated that no matter what they do the tank just will not die. Orisa being the most obvious, but Sigma, Zarya and Ram are just as invincible.
The perception to many DPS players is they get nothing done as DPS unless they go sniper with high burst damage.
I played soldier sometimes and although I would try to focus the supports, most of the games it really felt like I could do very little. The healing was just too high. If I could play widow (and didn’t think she should be removed from the game) then I’d probably have been one of the sniper slaves and swapped.
Healing is breaking the game in tandem with very, very resilient tanks that healing simply breaks. DPS have little choice but to go high burst heroes to deal with it.
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Unless you play Reaper lol the dev’s had to hard nerf him before 2 was even available to the public
2 heroes (at least I can’t think of any more) have lost a tiny bit of damage and we’ve lost a tank alongside a couple of hard stuns with a new gamemode that is filled with flank routes.
I don’t disagree that giving the burst healing changes to Brig and Bap or increasing both healing and damage on Ana were unhealthy (seriously what were they thinking for these changes?) but it’s just dishonest to say that healing has overall gone up - it’s that we got a bit more of a burst to our healing, and therein lies the problem.
I agree, on average. Some heroes can stay the same, such as LW, Moira, (she can heal a lot but its over time and barely noticeable in a fight unless she combos an ability while not dealing damage personally) Lucio, Zen, Brig, (after the ult nerf she needs something and 25 instaheal gives breathing room from flankers which is meant to be her niche) Kiriko Mercy (now that she’s no longer got grossly OP healing on <50% targets again) but others need looking at to some degree; bap’s base healing might be fine, but I think the instant heal should be looked at. Ana has nade, nano (I think reducing the instant heal to 100 would mean it’s no longer so braindead to keep a tank up with it) and I think her healing should be reverted to 70 per shot. Unsure about her damage. I found the increase a weird change, but I don’t think it affected any breakpoints directly?
At least, this is my take.
Agree, healing hasn’t gone up but burst has.
Baptiste did get a buff as regen field became an instaheal.
Mercy had the insane healing for a season that I’m so glad they reverted; it was so unhealthy for a healing style that literally can’t miss and doesn’t need to reload to do so much.
Ana’s buff likely sounds small but was substantial and completely unnecessary, which also plays into the bursty feeling since her heal over time is incredibly fast.
Moira’s buff didn’t directly increase her healing, but did make her ability to be healing more consistent, which was good and her heal over time is slow, so there’s no issue there.
Yeah, kiriko’s healing feels middling, which is fine since she has a great ult and survivability. (I think her passive should be removed and her base damage increased to 60, though)
Brig’s average healing is about the same, however she was given 25 burst heal which while fair does feel awful to go against if she comes out of spawn and just throws it on a target you’re about to kill, as an example.
I actually think more recent healing styles feel bad to go against because of the nature of how they work; Kiriko struggles to keep a teammate up during a fight, however it can feel horrible when someone you’re targeting who feels like they aren’t receiving any healing suddenly gets hit by all of their Kiri’s healing; it’s not high HPS average, but it is a spike of fast HOT. LW likely feels the same way because it’s another spike of fast HOT, even though his average HPS is maximum about 45, which is abysmal for a hero designed to be a healbot.
Now I don’t think Kiri or LW’s healing (or even that of brig) are problematic but it can feel like that. That said, I do think the changes to Bap and Ana are a big trigger for these problems, especially when you consider that it was Ana that started the healing power creep cycle all the way back in 2016.
Nah, just Bap and Ana.
Thats a superficial value that shouldn’t be balanced around, otherwise widow should be nerfed into the dirt
That’s a cute statistic, but it’s very detached and misrepresented. The three healers we started with are Mercy, Zenyatta, and Lucio. Zenyatta’s healing is the same, Mercy’s healing instead by 10%, and Lucio’s healing is stronger but only because his aura was reduced from the insane 30m it was before.
None of these heroes are weaker due to their lower healing, in fact they’re markedly above average in the support class. In actuality the support who heals the most on average is Mercy. Heroes with high healing potential like Ana don’t usually realize it.
But yes, there’s been healing creep since the beginning of the game. It’s just 280%, it’s closer to Mercy’s 10%. In that same time frame we’ve had damage creep and mobility creep, so if OP is really referring to that time than they’re still wrong.