Criticism Over the Balance Philosophy


#39

Just wanted to point out that in OP the zen change doesn’t necessarily have to be a NERF…

not all changes are nerfs intended to bring a character “down”…sometimes they don’t like how things feel…sometimes there are bugs that need changing…

In fact if everyone really wants this mythical game BALANCE then you want small changes to be happening all the time…that doesn’t make them NERFS


#40

Anything downgrading a hero, no matter the size, is a nerf.


#41

Im sorry there is a grey area…we agree to disagree


#42

gonna bump this.

characters


#43

I’d like to see them balance on pick rates in Masters and GMs mostly.

They are the people who KNOW which heroes are good or not, and pick the good ones.

You will have to accept that the supports are picked higher (while we have less supports than other classes) - but it should work out well.

put out a set of tweaks once a month where higher picked heroes are tuned down a little, and lower picked heroes are tuned up a little.

See if we can get them so they are picked about the same… within each category.


#44

They literally gave you a why.


#45

Will never happen, some heroes will have negative pickrates.

But, the way they balance has actually 0 direction, sometimes they balance around majority(casual) sometimes plat range, sometimes pro, who knows what they will do next. They just need a solid direction, but they try to appease everyone, and in an FPS, that simply WILL NOT happen.

That didn’t answer why that was significant… Killing tanks isn’t what pulse is for, it’s to swiftly kill a backline. Once again, this nerf will not change anything with her pickrate, or winrate.


#46

oh, what do you mean by this? lower picked heros would get buffed (slowly). until they ARE picked.

But it was being used exactly for that. which is why they nerfed it. it was a small change, but the start of something beautiful.

It was the first tracer specific nerf… um… ever.


#47

But once they get picked, others heroes won’t. You will never achieve perfect balance where all heroes are picked evenly, it’s just how games work, especially with 20+ heroes in it. When counters exist, they push other heroes out of the meta, when Beyblade was around, winston wasn’t. When D.Va was around, hitscans in general werent (super long matrix)

It just CAN’T happen.


#48

Sure it can, each month a different small re-balancing. It would FORCE the meta to shift around, which is good.

Hell, I helped with the design of a MMO which auto balanced hourly based on pick rates. The rebalances were VERY small.

Paladins tries to do the same thing, but that lead to some pretty funny results. (which is why balancing for higher ranks rather than all play is good).


#49

No no, it LITERALLY CANNOT happen. Like it’s mathematically impossible.

TF2 tried it, even when no extra weapons were in the game, some characters were just better. And if they tried to nerf the one getting picked more, it was enough to drive them into bad-hood. At one point they did a simple nerf to Demoman, and it BROKE the balance.

With so many heroes, all of them having the same winrate and pickrate will never happen. Not to mention different levels of skill. They would have to make every single hero as bland as possible, with no skill ceiling, or floor to see. Every hero would be a reskin of the rest.


#50

I think what detrimental is the wrong mindset of some players.

This is not generic CSO kind of shooter game, it relies on more team base and strategy other than solely aiming. You cannot expect your virtual god like sniper mechanical skills would always win you the game…you basically become an expert AI or an aim-bot, but if you fail to cooperate with the team, you might just be worse than a teamplayer who might have not as good aiming as you.

While I don’t agree to all of their balancing decision, I do think they value the team cooperation in mind which I appreciate.

Many of the player leaves because you know, many gamers play video game not for the sake of cooperating, but boosting their ego, bragging about their domination in a game rather than be a team player - that’s why many people left. Because in a game where their “expert AI” level of skill won’t single-handly always win them the game. Therefore, they leave, and I think it’s fair. They should find a game that suit them well.

Whenever I see these kind of "low skill’ “High skill” comment, I got really frustrated because most of you are just too closed mind to see -

  1. Skills are relative, and suit everyone differently, having good aiming doesn’t mean you would perform as well with other heroes.

  2. While these kind of skills certain affect the result of a game to a degree, the lack of strategies and teammplay cooperation is just as detrimental to a very bad gamer.

Of course, there is also the factor of the matchmaking system, trolls, salty given up teammates, etc…

But overall I think what needs to be changed most is this kind of mindset of many players. If you can’t change, won’t change and don’t want to change, maybe you should play another game like many people who have left.


#51

It was strong enough to be used to kill tanks previously.

Their are several times where our Reinhardt gets stuck Tracer blinks behind and Reinhardt chooses between either shielding from the Tracer while at 100 health, or Shielding against the rest of the team. It usually led to death either way.

It would also one shot Orisa and Zarya if they don’t have shift up, which Tracer can easily wait for and delete them.


#52

Sure it can. I was on a design team in a game which was doing it.

The nerfs / buffs were VERY small, but continuous.

The win rates isn’t something you can balance around in overwatch, in part because of how the matchmaker works, and in part because of how SR works.

Pick rates though? Sure you can. You just need to make sure they are balanced within their own groups (or, DPS will end up very powerful, and supports VERY weak, because there are fewer supports than DPS).


#53

Oh my god I’m having such a hard explaining this I’m about to bash my head off the keyboard so I’ll try one more time before giving up.

IT.
IS.
IMPOSSIBLE.

You CAN’T do it in an FPS, let alone an FPS with abilities. Every single hero would have to be the same, do the same, excel in the same areas, all counter eachother. It WOOOOOON’T HAPPEN


#54

It probably is impossible, but it’s an ideal that the game should strive for though.


#55

Yes, things would change CONSTANTLY. you wouldn’t end up in a static perfectly balanced system, and THAT IS OK.

They wouldn’t all counter each other, etc. But, when heroes are in the top 1/3 of their area and bottom 1/3 of their area, you can, and should buff / nerf to bring them closer to the middle.

look, instead of just saying it CAN’T be done, give me a counter example. Show me WHY it can’t be done, because, in the boring, grindy as all hell korean MMO we made, it worked (it didn’t save the MMO from crashing and burning- but we did get things a lot more balanced.)


#56

Thank you… Rainbow six, as mentioned earlier, attempts to achieve perfect balance in Pro league, but they know it’ll never happen. Some ops will be at 0-10% pickrate while some are 70% in the perfect scenario.

THAT’S WHY, IT’S AN MMO.

We’re talking about an FPS here, where it’s a 3D playing field, there’s just never going to be a scenario where a Soldier: 76 and a D.Va at the same rank can 1v1 with a 50% chance. If that does happen, then that makes D.Va a bad hero, since she can’t counter hitscans anymore. There’s your example.


#57

Tracer’s ult nerf doesn’t really do anything about why it’s so good: it deals high damage and ohkos a majority of the cast while charging at an extreme rate. Even with a nerfed ult, she’ll stay a top hero anyways.

Zenyatta’s right click nerf was fine but just like the Tracer nerf it didn’t really accomplish too much to weaken him significantly. He’s still easily the best support.

Genji didn’t need nerfs at all, but I don’t think bad hitboxes should be a part of any kit even if the kit is balanced. I think it was nerfed too hard though, and I hope it gets buffed a bit to a middle ground.


#58

not trying to balance for that.

just trying to balance for pick rates.

We rely on the masters / gm’s to pick which heroes are good / bad, rather than trying to balance for 1v1s.