Come back to us, BrightTitan :' (

I deleted my post because the experience of playing Overwatch in 2022, (on console, I can’t speak to other formats) in my opinion, is so hellishly bad that there’s nothing positive or supportive to say. I was convinced that I could go back and re-commit to the game with a better understanding of the underlying mechanics. I thought I might be able to give people a bit of that same of optimism so they’d pick up the game again and play with a clear and focused mindset. But I turned the console on, and just had the worst damned matches imaginable. The insights into how and why it worked the way it did didn’t matter.

If the quality of the experience is an unavoidable consequence of game formats like Overwatch in general, then there’s no point in making any statement about it at all. If it’s doing the best it can and the experience is still awful, then in some sense the experience deserves to stand on its own. People should be encouraged or discouraged to play the game based on how it feels from moment to moment. And if it feels terrible, what sort of defense could you really put forward? What’s left to say, but, um, “Hey, just ignore the experience and keep practicing”?

To be clear, I’m of the mindset now that some form of matchmaking is required to solve certain issues. Now, you can say that you personally don’t care about those issues, or that they’re less important than some of your other priorities, but you can’t say that they don’t objectively solve or address what they set out to solve. A very early version of Halo is the first game to institute SBMM. Interest and enthusiasm in the game soared as a result. Prior to that, the gaming world DID have random matchmaking, with players grouped solely by ping (Doom, versions of Quake, I believe). What happened in ping based matchmaking? The best players stomped everyone else into dust – repeatedly. New players were turned off, and better players were bored. This is a problem if you’re a developer tasked with, you know, feeding your family and staying in business. It’s unreasonable to assert that a developer have no consideration above and beyond what some subset of their community wants. You’ll agree that profit is not an inconsequential factor.

The two sides of this argument don’t really need to reconcile this topic in such a way that one side concedes to the other. All that’s required is an acknowledgement that either side has different views about what a competitive environment should be; and along with that, an understanding that those differences come with broad implications for underlying subsystems.

At best, I think you can say that the current incarnation of ranked makes the sorting process inefficient. But you can’t say that it renders the skill differential between one player and the next meaningless. If more skill equals a greater chance of winning, and less skill the opposite, the relative odds of winning between one player and the next conform to their level of skill, which is what a latter effectively is. It is quite a pronouncement to say that skill and results have little if any correlation to one another, and the burden of proof would be on you to present evidence for this. Data. Facts.

If you’re really committed to seeking the truth (and everyone here should be) study python for a few months and build a mock gaming lobby. Create a thousand random players and assign them each a skill level, with that skill level correlating to some unit of measure that has predictive power for their likelihood of winning. Create one algorithm that matches these players randomly. Create another that matches players based on some range, with each player matched relative to his counterpart on the other team. Have them play 500 matches and see what the two winrates and SR are. Your algorithm doesn’t have to be as complex as the Blizzard algo, it only has to tell you which model would take longer to properly sort the players relative to skill. Someone who knows this stuff better than me tell me why this project totally fails. :slight_smile:

But even if you find that random is better, you still can’t really justify Blizzard using a less profitable algorithm. And even if you could, you’d only be doing so on the basis of opinion: my way of running a business is better than yours – and even that fails to the logic that your objectives and Blizzard’s are different, and so it’s only logical that your methods would differ.

Further, we already know that increasing your skill will allow you to climb. So increase your skill, or don’t. But there’s no logical argument which can establish an “ethical” level of grind. How much or how little is determined by what the market will bear, everything else is opinion. It’s hard to make an argument that this even falls into the realm of ethics.

Likewise! I respect your passion for this issue. And no disrespect taken. I just don’t know what’s left to be said that hasn’t been said already. Positions have been staked out (for the most part, though I still think there’s some problematic ambiguity regarding this whole discourse) and laid out countless times. See prior comments about both sides not needing to come an agreement on what the best system is, since both have different definitions of what “best” means, and preferences cannot or do not have to reconcile: I cannot reasonably argue that your favorite color should be orange.

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True, the closer 6 players on one team are to the other, the more the match between the two teams essentially becomes a 1 v 1.

Also statistically, aren’t the odds of a close match statistically way more improbable than the odds of a stomp? it’s like that one popular logic puzzle: “Jane is a banker and a feminist” is way less likely than “Jane is a banker.” Obviously the more variables you add, the less likely they’ll all line up in a way that all variables match closely.

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I tried not to belabor the point because (as you said) you’re over it. But you know me. I can’t shut myself up.

TLDR: ONLY respond to the parts you feel compelled to. But I do request you give me the full read as I gave you.

Depends on your role. You’ve never explicitly said which role you main but for some reason I got the impression it was support. Which is less about mechanics and INFINITELY more about game sense.

Personally I attribute my success to call-outs.

While this may be true, there are just so many better things to commit your time to. Take it from someone who’s been there done that.

(obviously you get it since you’re not perpetuating the point).

That’s all I want to make clear. But… I don’ t really think this has ever been your position tbh.

Its a fair statement. And I don’t disagree with it.

Correct… And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Could YOU (Titan) be a GM player? 100% YOU could… Are you willing to sacrifice what it takes to get there? Well… Its clear that the answer is no, and I don’t fault you for that in the slightest since I never had the ambition to be GM.

As long as you’re focused on this and not match making, we’re on the same page.

I have definitely stopped “trying” mid-game because I just didn’t feel my team deserved a win. Both when I was trying to escape my elo AND while leveling someone elses account. Why should I carry this game when my teammates are just toxic/unappreciative?

Valorant, Homie… Valorant…

You still have to compensate for inexperienced players but at least it can be done.

Hence why I don’t play anymore.

I love playing in scrims but I just don’t have the time to commit to maintaining what it takes to be a Masters Level Overwatch Player. I’m in grad school part time and I have a full time career as an Engineer… Since work from home is no longer an option, I can’t dedicate 2 hrs a day to aim training.

Also, this disappears in mid/high diamond/Masters games as long as you don’t mind “just playing medium Overwatch.” Which I didn’t. Scrim games were still better but ladder Overwatch at 36xx SR was close enough that I felt vindicated. Sometimes I was matched with teammates that wanted to work together. Sometimes we had an underperformer and sometimes “I” was the underperformer. But my ladder competitive experience from 3250-3650 was honestly way better than any other rank I’d been in.

Couldn’t agree more

That’s not what I think at all dude…

You realize we’ve been speaking for almost a year? You may/not remember certain details about me but I do retain a couple about you. I’m aware that you realized (before TaleSwapper) the importance of individual contribution to a game.

Tough pill to swallow. But once you (community you) do, the game LITERALLY changes.

THIS!!

And I’ll be honest, its exhausting AF. And as I’ve said before, I would not choose to repeat the process.

It “IS” your requirement to prove this to the match maker. But if you don’t have the commitment, then its not gonna happen. And not having the commitment IS NOT the same as the game being rigged against you. But I’d like to think you’re very aware of this.

I don’t care if you (community you) know the theory of Overwatch. If you can’t prove it through gameplay then you truly don’t understand it.

The correct answer is neither of us. The Match Maker determines where you belong over the course of your competitive career. Unless you quit your career early which ends in (insert rank here) which is 100% fine.

The response you’re giving me RIGHT NOW is NOT written IN ANY WAY the same as what you wrote above… Can you not see that? It almost feels like you’re conflicted (as cutbuert implied).

Read THIS response (to me) and read your response above… They literally don’t feel like the same person writing them. Except that I know that they are, so I can only deduce that you’re not addressing the same things you believe to be an issue. :face_with_monocle:

Yes, Correct… And decently written. NOT the same as your response above that I responded to.

In your post above, you’re still going on about match making whereas in this post, you’re explaining and acknowledging the importance and difference made via individual impact.

The tone of the conversation is back on track.

YES!! YES!! CORRECT!!

You cannot just simply turn on autopilot and log in for competitive. If higher SR is what you desire to achieve then you are obligated to try your F best EVERY SINGLE TIME to the point of MENTAL exhaustion to persevere.

Do you not see the difference in your tone between this response and the one you gave to whatshisnuts?

Really? Because the implicit response above does not align with this response.

  • Just saying.

Omegalul… You should tell that to the rigged MM cultists on this forum. Oh wait… Been there done that…

  • Its not worth your time.

Simple… Because we already know (through dev comments and personal experience) that matches will be shipped even when one team has a 60% chance of winning and the other team has a 40% chance at winning.

When I was a try-hard masters player, do YOU (Titan) REALLY think that the Silver/Gold/Plat games I was smurfing in had any chance of being greater than a 50% chance of winning for the other team (even when I solo-queue’d)? If you really want, I’ll try to find screen shots of the win rates and stats from a couple of the accounts I leveled during that time and you can review the numbers.

Numbers don’t lie. However, let it be known I do not have access to those accounts. Its all based on screen caps I kept from that time (if I can find em).

You should say this to all the hard stucks who come onto the forums complaining about smurfs then.

I’ve done it dude, I’ve climbed accounts from bronze/silver to Platinum/Diamond. I can assure you…

  • Yes

Smurfs exist. But in climbing out of silver, the most (common) you’ll ever see is some plat player on an alt account trying to boost his trash silver friend. Every time I’d roll one of these kids you can just tell (through their gameplay) they just can’t believe they’re getting OUT-SMURF’D.

They start playing worse and worse to the point were you can tell they’re tilted and frustrated, and you make them look even worse as a player. These are the same kids who’ll be like

  • Imagine trying hard while smurfing.

Because the smurf knows they don’t belong ( the player is playing below their rank) in that elo and the player getting rolled knows they (the better smurf) don’t belong there either. But they can’t do anything about it because the other player is “just better.”

If you were a PC player, I think your experience would be 100% different because you would have joined our discord, played with better players and learned the game through competitive eyes.

No… This is a legitimate approach to the argument.

  • With one problem

How do you account for clutch factor in programming? A computer CANNOT do this. And that is why it is VERY easy to skew this data in favor of one argument or anther.

But on a basic level, you’ve essentially outlined the correct approach to solving the problem (I’m an EE, I’ve always approached the MM argument from this perspective).

For real…

Unless of course… You’re implying that YOU should decide what’s best for ME as an individual. :face_with_monocle:

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I’ve played all roles really. Stopped playing DPS because of queue times. Got fed up playing tanks because of the level of frustration associated with the role. Played a lot of support, but funnily enough, this role gives you the best and broadest view of all the mistakes your teammates are making, so it tilts me the worse. Again, playing on console is probably the dumbest way to play Overwatch for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the sheer number of alt accounts people can make. 90% of the invested players I had on my friends list had more than one account.

It’s all moot now though. Just yesterday I literally took a scissors and cut the power cables to my consoles and threw the cables in the garbage: perhaps the one advantage of playing on console over PC: I couldn’t have taken actions this drastic with my PC.

It’s an enormous advantage. If you save a player from dying due to a callout, you essentially just gave your hero a Mercy res. If you callout a pending grav and tell your team to spread out or warn your D.va you virtually just provided your team a 5 Mercy res’es or a Zen trans. Call out out a focus target, and you gave your team a virtual discord orb. Arguably, there is nothing stronger than great callouts.

This is the reason I cut my console cables. We have to realize that we’re all somewhat stupid (and one’s ego shouldn’t prevent them from recognizing this fact: the more you become aware of your stupidity, the more you can plan around it; and here “stupidity” is defined as impulsive mental quirks and repeated failures in critical thinking that’ll undermine what should actually matter to you). I knew that I’d adjust to not having games to play just like I would anything else, so why not just burn the bridge behind you and get on with the part of your journey that actually makes sense?

My take on it is that so much of what society considers “brilliance” or “high skill” really comes down to motivation, and because people cannot detect motivation, they can only see the external manifestations of it (brilliance, natural “talent,” etc) they tend to think that the brilliance and talent are what makes high achievement (in most things) possible. But in my opinion, that’s wrong.

Tolerance for boredom, pain, and frustration is probably the determining factor (and people who are “born” to do something often the “worst” aspects of it enjoyable (or at least minimally unpleasant) and so they can labor longer and with higher levels of concentration and interest than their counterparts. And then just like compound interest eventually has a multiplier/exponential affect on some principle, you start to see the same thing in terms of results. This is why it’s important to explore a lot of different avenues of life, so you can try to find that thing that’ll enable you to really throw everything you’ve got at it vs. toiling in some domain where your strongest motivations never come online. Most people who aren’t getting the results in Overwatch that they want probably just need to stop playing. Yes, you enjoy the game, but you’re not willing to do what’s required to get better. You’ve got to like the thing you’re serious about, warts and all.

Not an option :slight_smile: No games are anymore. Focusing my interests on programming, finance/stocks, database stuff, and writing.

That’s amazing! Best of luck! Sucks that work from home isn’t an option anymore. If it’s that important to you, try to find something that enables you to do that. At this point, I’m re-orienting everything around ensuring I don’t have to go into an office. It’s dumb, and working from home is just non-negotiable at this point. My days of fighting traffic and sitting in a box all day are over.

I hear you. Overwatch is just too chaotic (among other things). People despise the (ladder) team aspect, and yet there they are, forcing themselves into it. A nagging desire to continue to play Overwatch is neurological state (driven by dopamine), it is NOT a representation of Overwatch’s inherent quality or attractiveness. Again, once I realized this, I destroyed my console cord. The dopamine-driven circuitry in my brain that used to tell me Overwatch was worthy of vast amounts of my time and energy will weaken and eventually disappear, and just like that, something I used to think was important will be meaningless to me.

I can definitely see scrims being better, but better just to move on. I look at the hours spent on Overwatch and it makes me sick to my stomach. That many hours devoted to, say, mastering cryptocurrency, and I wouldn’t have to work for the next 10 years or more.

You nailed it. “Exhausting” is probably the best way to describe Overwatch. And I think that ties directly into the chaotic aspect of it. To do well, you have to literally devote every bit of bandwidth you can, as much as you can. No other activity I take part in required that of me. That non-stop rapid multi-tasking IS mentally exhausting.

The awareness that that’s what you have to do to play this game well is probably one of the major things holding a lot of players back: they vastly underestimate the number of things they should be thinking about, or entire aspects of the game are just invisible to them.

Very true.

The difficulty of manifesting your understanding in a chaotic environment being a totally different story the tidiness of theory. Good point.

The matchmaker knows my output. It doesn’t know my current aptitude.

What I write here, I feel, varies a lot in quality and coherence. The level of effort from one post to the next is all over the place. Very possible that previous writing on something just fails on one level or another.

You and I agree (and always have?) that skill is the most important factor. I think where we’ve disagreed is how much the matchmaker dilutes or gets in the way of expression of skill as it translates to progress. Absent in these conversations has been (not between you and I, but in general) has been the mathematics that settles the argument. I’m pretty sure that a bad a55 data scientist or statistician, could solve this entire debate pretty easily.
It pains me to say, but I’m just limited when it comes to my mathematical abilities, it’s just one of those topics in school that never really interested me. What do you think about the statement that this entire debate is resolved in mathematics, and not so much in informal logic?

I think there are multiple factors. If matchmaking ever “caused” a player to lose, it was a factor. The next question up for debate would be: how often does the matchmaker cause a player to lose? The interesting aspect of this question is that the answer may be different across ranks.

I believe you. I give the benefit of the doubt to most claims here (since to me it’s more likely that a person is telling the truth than trying to craft some sort of weird campaign of deceit).

And no, the players on the other team didn’t have a 50% chance of winning that match (though the matchmaker thought they did, which in itself is problematic?)

But how do you go about assessing whether the difficulty required to climb out of a rank is where it "should’ be? The idea that it’s proper wherever it is can’t be a reasonable position. And Blizzard absolutely has some (if not a LOT) of control over that level of difficulty. With the turn of a dial, Blizzard could ensure that GMs have a hard capped 50% winrate through gold. I don’t see how one takes Blizzard’s implementation of the matchmaker completely out of the equation.

Do you agree that NFL coaches understand the game at a much higher level than they can play it? If that’s a thing, it’s a potential thing for OW players too. I understand the game at a much higher level than I play it. I have a shameful amount of hours watching Jayne, Your Overwatch, browsing subreddits, etc. My reasons for my rank have a lot more to do with flatout laziness and getting tilted than they do with misunderstanding tactics, strategy, and ignorance. I could get to diamond based on what I know now. Trust me. And to get to masters would require gap analysis and systematically grinding areas of concern in the gap analysis. As for not joining discord, it has NOTHING to do with you guys, in fact I like you guys quite a lot. I’m just not very social that way.

You maybe create a “clutch” variable and assign that to each player, and set to an rng range that scales relative to the player’s SR (after all, a player is likely to be a higher SR based partially on their ability to make clutch plays). I don’t think this violates logic, since lower ranked players are less likely to make clutch plays, their lower rank, being a predictor of their clutch ability.

I’m slowly but surely learning Python. Maybe this’ll be my first project. :slight_smile:

Sorry for my delay in replying. As you can see, it was not a trivial level of effort to reply. But I ALWAYS read responses, particularly yours and Basil’s, even if I don’t reply right away. I should get in the habit of being better about “liking” them so you know it hasn’t just drifted off into the ether.

Same as you said, reply as much or as little as necessary or desired. I don’t take a failure to respond as my “winning” or being ignored.

i should be able to play whoever i want whenever i want and style on players worse than me. whatever it is blizzard has going on is crocked beyond our comprehension.

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What a really daft thing to do.

Could of at least sold your console and made some money.

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You misread what I wrote. I threw away the cables, not the consoles.

I mean he does have a point. Even with GameStop’s terrible value for selling consoles you’d be looking at at least a couple hundred depending on which consoles they were and how many you had.

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His misread my statement: I threw the cables away, not the console.

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I understand that, idk just feels a little drastic to me even with the cheap cost of a new cable. Unless you wanted to have the possibility of getting new cables for just yourself to use the consoles again.

Sell it and GET PS5

:smirk_cat:

Funny how the CoD SBMM gets called out for being awful, but in a game that is more teamwork reliant would somehow be better. When there are even more variables out of your control

Still a silly thing. Just don’t turn it on.

You realize there are GM players in this and those threads who also support the claim, right? You realize there are players who admit to being at a higher ranking than they should be due to handicapping, right? You also realize that by its very definition, MMR is a handicapping system, right? As in, that is exactly what it mathematically does. You would need to have basically zero understanding of basic math to not, so I assume you are just trolling.

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i wouldve taken them fren…

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No can do compadre, my gaming days are over.

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How do you determine whether something is silly or not?

And why would I rely on something as unreliable as willpower when there’s a failsafe solution that guarantees success until I can sell the consoles?

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I threw away the cables, not the consoles.

Continue being delusional

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Its easier than accepting the truth.

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