Sure, whatever you say.
I’m on my phone so I can’t reply to your points as cleanly as you can, so I apologize
But, functionally, it’s the exact same weapon. A straight beam. Sure, the damage numbers are different, and to is the size. But they both, mechanically, feel the exact same way. No two heroes in the game feel like one another. Soldier does not feel like Sombra, Reaper doesn’t feel like D.Va, Rein doesn’t feel like Brig, Zen doesn’t feel like Torb, Moira doesn’t feel like Mei. Every single hero feels unique to themselves. But two straight beam weapons just feels uninspired and boring, frankly.
I know her limitations more than most players (all Sym mains do). But none of us, from the 6+ months we’ve been collectively screaming at the devs for constructive and healthy changes to her, wanted (or thought she needed) for her gun functionality to change. She absolutely has no reliable range damage, but her orbs always felt good against shield-heavy comps. There have been HUNDREDS of great threads on suggestions for them to improve her orbs and removing their “piercing” perk was never one of them. Hundreds of great suggestions on how they can improve her primary while still retaining its lock fiction AND feeling fair to use. But the approach Blizzard is taking just feels like a slap in the face to all the Symmetra players who gave valuable feedback, while catering to masses’ desires, who don’t even play her. Like a man making decisions about women’s health, it doesn’t feel right.
Change IS good, I believe that. But this is on a different scale. Her first rework really wasn’t that drastic. She has always been able to provide shields, so they just moved that ability to an ultimate, and gave her a shield. Along with slightly extending the beam range and a very slight reduction on turret cooldown. Nothing was really changed, and she got a new shield ability. This proposed change completely rewrites her conceptually. She no longer provides shields, something she has ALWAYS been able to do for her team since beta. Her turrets revert back to 3 (like in beta), her TP gets the Mercy treatment, her ultimate replaces the shield health she was always able to provide (as cool as it sounds), and her gun (something no other hero has had changed, mechanically) is getting a complete overhaul. It’s just not something Symm mains ever suggested, it’s what everybody else did.
You don’t know that at all. You are assuming it will based on description. How do they feel the same way when you have not even tested it out yet?
Just because you suggested idea’s does not mean they are good or healthy for Sym. For all you know they did extensive testing with variations of suggestions people gave and came to conclusion that idea’s in theory sounded better then they actually translated to when in practice.
Feeling good and being good are two very different things. Firing a piercing orb every 2 seconds at a snails pace is functional worse then firing two explosive orbs in that same time that moves at 30m a second (Pharah’s rockets move at 35 just for perspective). In addition firing smaller orbs in current iteration was rarely a good idea so the only real option was doing a full charge. With the changes in place you can opt to change up your fire rate for more difficult dodging but a little less damage.
Her piercing orb had only one feasible use and that was against pirate ship comps. All others could simply avoid by stepping to the right or left. Even then there are far better options that straight up shred the barrier instead. Having a niche ability that is only good against a niche comp is not worth having just because of how it “feels”.
Everything about Sym was changed outside of her secondary fire. Not a single thing remained untouched in her first rework outside of that. She was even the first hero (and only so far) to have two ultimate options. How is this not a drastic change?
The very fact that the only thing that remained unchanged was her secondary speaks volumes as to how much they wanted to retain her original weapon type. Which should tell you all the more clearly that they just could not get her weapon to work as it does without seriously breaking her balance.
This is the only truly big change for her. But considering how useless shields are in comparison to any other health bolstering effect in the game it is not that big of a loss.
Stronger turrets that are now deployable at range. How is this a conceptual change? It is more like a quality of life change that allows her more control of the battlefield she is on. Something Sym has lacked up until this point. Which is sad considering that was kind of the point of having her.
The “Mercy treatment” is another debate entirely so I am just going to focus on the matter at hand instead.
Teleporter is an ability that depends on your team and the enemy team FAILING in order to get value. At least with Res that failure is removed without waiting for a respawn timer. A respawn timer that leaves more then enough opportunity for enemy team to push in with superior numbers.
The only real way it gets value is if the enemy team is dumb enough not to assume that sym has a teleporter and lets it sit hidden nearby for a retake. Which does happen but an ability that requires monumental failure on the part of your team AND the enemy team is neither a consistent ultimate nor a good design philosophy
Which makes it not worth sacrificing a slot for on demand defensive and offensive ultimates which can prevent failure in the first place.
It’s new iteration is much better because it has the potential to synergize with the team and operates on the assumption of success rather then failure. It also means that teammates will be far more willing to working and roll with a Sym player. Can you imagine how stoked an attack bastion player would be at the opportunity of being teleported onto the archway on eichwalde first choke with a rein along with him? Turning the choke point and highground against the defenders in a flash!
That is what I call value and a design philosophy based on success, not failure.
Which as I said brings her ultimate into an on demand defensive option more tuned toward creating success instead of depending on minor and catastrophic failures to draw value. The potency of being able to setup a barrier between you and a ulting roadhog and then shield dancing side to side with your team would be amazing.
Which I have explained has been determined as needed as Blizzard already tried to preserve its original design and it met with lack luster results that just cannot be overcome while preserving said design. Her weapon is so bad that it actually WARRANTS a mechanic change.
Changed, yes. But there is a difference from number adjustments and adjusting how an ability works. The only actual “changes” Symmetra got in her first rework were:
- Photon Shield removed, substituted by Photon Barrier
- Shield Generator added as a second ultimate.
That’s it. The rest was simple numbers adjustments (ie, “buffs”) to her existing kit:
- Photon Projector range increased by 2 meters
- Initial and max Turret stash raised to 6 (from 3), and turret cooldown reduced to 10 (from 12).
- Teleporter (and Shield Gen) now have 50 health and 350 shield (from 200 health)
None of the above “changes” effectively changed how you play Symmetra in a conceptual level. You still place your Teleporter in the same places, you still place your turrets in the same place, and you still have to be basically melee range to attach the microwave.
She was not conceptually a different hero compared to her launch state. This new rework? That will be completely different. The gun works differently, the turrets will be used in completely new ways, TP will require a full new mindset and map study, and Infinity Wall need entire new placement learning.
Alright fine. It is a conceptual change. That does not make the change in her previous work any less drastic. However, Answer me this.
If the original concept is bad why should it not be thrown out for a better one? Give me a reasonable argument that a faulty design philosophy should be kept beyond you just liking how it feels.
Like I said before. Current symetra and previous iterations of symetra were designed around the conditions of failure on both your team and the enemy.
That is a bad way to design any character.
Her weapon brings nothing other characters cannot do better and more reasonable ranges and reduced risk, her projected barrier can do nothing a barrier based tank can do better, the shields provided by her are worse then just having an armor provider or a direct healer who can create active sustain instead of passive recovery, her secondary is better replaced with barrier shredder dps, and her teleporter is just a poor mans res that all to often makes zero difference due to still having to wait out the spawn timer.
Her current concept is flawed in every way shape and form. As such it NEEDS to be changed. Those changes require her to lose her primary auto lock. Those changes require changing her from a failure based value character to one that works toward success instead.
Out of respect for the people that actually enjoy the original concept, at least. We have a huge topic filled with feedback and suggestions that came since the previous forum incarnation. That would be a good starting point.
Teleporter is a safety net against failure. But I disagree on the rest of the kit.
Symmetra is possibly one of the more pro-active heroes in the game because she absolutely need to properly setup her toys for maximum efficiency between team fights. She needs to analyze the situation and adjust her defenses in advance to what the next move the enemy wants to do. Symmetra don’t have the luxury of waiting to see where the enemy will attack, and react to that.
I see her gameplay pretty much like setting a goldberg machine. If you do it properly, everything falls into place, and your team win with minimal interference from your part during the fight. If you do one or two little missteps, you can adjust it on the fly. But if you make a wildly wrong prediction and set your defenses in a path the enemy will simply not take, you have to salvage the situation, and be more a burden than an asset. And that prospect is highly engaging for me as a player.
No other weapon in the game can pierce outside a cooldown. Only Firestrike and Coalescence can pierce like Symmetra orbs. That alone would be argument more than sufficient to keep her orbs as they are, since they are unique within the game.
You are wrong, the disconnect range is not the distance but the duration of 0.5s so in that duration, the range will go as far as you go and its not OP at all, sym have no mobility so she cannot chase anyone, its the punishment for you to go near her like go near Brigitte
Moira has lock on but its soft lock on
Because she has nothing other than damage
Unlike Brigitte, she has tankiness, healing, selfsustain, armor, CC, a shield with 600hp so Brigitte cannot have as much damage as a dps
while sym have short range, no reliable long range dps, no mobility, no tankiness, no selfsustain, no protection, her photon barrier is great but situational and only give her about 2-3s of protection so she must have the lock on and high damage to make up for what she doesnt have
I wouldn’t of cared if they tuned how much it locks on. I cant stand how little she has to aim for reward.
I like her lock on beam. Then again I like sym close to how she is now. I wouldn’t have swapped ult and E, I probably would have replaced photon barrier with a cleanse. I like what they’re doing with turrets. And I do think her current ult is clunky. Idk, I guess I have mixed feelings. The thing I am saddest about is losing her autolock beam
We haven’t seen the thickness of it yet, or its range.
If you see her weapon’s visual effect as you play her, i think the dev will make her beam’s thickness same as her visual effect now (highest level would be half of Moira’s ult)
her range wont be longer than zarya’s in term of balance
So assuming that you dislike any suggestions that change her conceptually this thread fails on all fronts because her current concept itself is terrible. So any suggestions that keep the same concept are also flawed.
If the enemy fails to capitalize on the death of one of your teammates that is a failure on their part. Teleport’s value depends on one or more of your teammates dying and the enemy failing to push.
That is is based on failure. Not a safety net.
And despite even the best setups symmetra is still the easiest in the entire lineup of hero’s to dislodge.
Which happens very rarely above bronze level.
I am not talking about weapon mechanics. I am talking about roles. Why pierce a barrier when you can just DESTROY the barrier and let your entire team get damage in? There is zero need for it.
Rein primarily uses his flamestrike to finish off weakened targets and to generate earth shatter. Which gives him VALUE.
The piercing mechanic is only good if it gets a job done better then other options. Sym’s orb does NONE of that.
I’m 22 year old with mouse hand. I got it from over working in school. Sometimes symptons are really bad that effects drastically my tracking and can make me it for me not be possible play heroes that needs it. I do think symmetras beam blends too much but i would be fine if it would be changed similar to moiras. I dislike idea of it be similar to zaryas since zarya is one of characters i cant play effectively if my wrist is acting up
Sorry I have to disagree. The disconnect range is pretty huge. I didn’t call it OP at all, but I will absolutely call it skill-less. Her disconnect range is almost twice as far as Brigitte’s reach and has the duration on top of that making it very difficult to escape even for some heroes with mobility like Soldier.
“soft lock on” is a misnomer at best. Her attack is a cylinder and the graphical effect is essentially drawn as a ribbon particle towards the center of the player so it appears to curve and lock on but in no way actually does.
Sym is a utility hero. Her primary purposes are not to go deal damage. That’s the sole reason her attack is so forgiving, is that she’s basically not designed to be someone that does battle, and it’s a powerful last resort for people who get too close. But unfortunately when people do, its extremely annoying to deal with, and a lot of people think it’s unfair that a hero can get away with essentially not aiming just because it’s not her primary function.
Isnt this the same thing for Brig? While Brig have more than enough to help her to stay alive for a long time and deal even more damage than sym. sym have nothing but damage, her utility is weak and thats why she is bad, bliz’s next rework for her wont help her because they still leave too many weaknesses that are too easy to exploit
Brig has survivability but she doesn’t have a 9.5m (+0.5s tolerance) no-aim auto-lock on beam that can do up to 120 damage per second and kill a 200hp hero in under 3 seconds without aiming. Pretty much any mobility hero can escape from her even after being stunned (which is even shorter range than sym’s beam).
EDIT: Let me also be clear. I wouldn’t mind this behavior for close range combat with people who engage her. Her damage and forgiving aim are an excellent deterrent for doing so, much in the same way that Brig is a good 1v1 brawler that it’s unwise to try to go head to head with. My problem is the fact that sym’s current setup can just jump in on someone and given the tether break range and duration she can easily melt people actively trying their best to get away from her. Many heroes who don’t want to be engaged with her often have no choice but to do so and hope to win in 3 seconds or else die. This seems pretty ridiculous if she has the range that she has without also having to aim. She should have one or the other - range or damage, but not both.
No. She needs to be changed. Numerous times have I died to a beam going round a corner even though I am out of the line of sight of her
again, she has no mobility, no escape option, no self sustain, no tankiness, no protection, short range and need 2s to level her beam up, dealing with her is not that hard, if you go 1v1 against a sym and still havent beat her in 2s you better be dead, she has all of those weaknesses for you to exploit and if she has no reward then no one will play her. And thats what happening right now, people hate her, she gain no reward with all those weaknesses that require sym player have to survive and when she does people scream out “no aim no brain”, they scream out why a no aim weapon is allowed to have that damage yet they never know how hard it is to have that damage and do something for the team
I see you stand on the side of the field that believes if your team lose one person, the other 5 must retreat and concede the point. That’s pretty much the main reason why I don’t enjoy watching pros playing dive, the fights are over too quickly. And I hold similar beliefs on the games I enjoy.
There is a ton of factors involved in that “hold 5v6 for 10 seconds” scenario. Who was picked, how early they were picked, what is left of the team, where everyone is positioned, etc.
So, eg, if we are defending Anubis point A, and our Soldier get picked before the fight starts, but our team still have a Junkrat, D.va, Reinhardt, Moira and Zenyatta. If the enemy team is moving together through the left side to engage us in the middle ground, its perfectly possible to hold there without anyone dying for 10 seconds until our Soldier returns via Teleporter. Holding 20 seconds so he can run all the way back from the spawn is much harder.
My experience says the opposite.
It’s really not uncommon for the enemy team to pick 2 or 3 heroes specifically to “counter” my setup (usually, Winston and Pharah/Pharmercy), and that makes their comp predictable and easy to counter ourselves.
For instance, one of my comp partners is a great Reaper. Killing Winston as Reaper is not really a hard job, but its a lot easier when I scatter the turrets around, and Winston is too busy looking for them (because he often switched with the intention to clear my turrets). Ditto for Pharah. If we have a Symmetra in the team, you can expect someone in the enemy team to pick Pharah sometime in the match, even if the map is not favorable to her. Just be ready for when this happens.
You’d be surprised. It still works against diamond players.
Uh… no. You clearly stated:
Her gun is unique, both by being the only lock-on weapon, and being the only basic weapon capable to pierce through enemies. Removing one aspect would already be huge. Removing both is killing a good part of her uniqueness.
If you take notice of his recent nerfs they actually encourage him to be more accurate. So yes, they are trying to make him slightly less spammy.