Can We Not Change Symmetra's Primary Fire?

I don’t.

I see you stand on the side of the field that believes if your team lose one person, the other 5 must retreat and concede the point. That’s pretty much the main reason why I don’t enjoy watching pros playing dive, the fights are over too quickly. And I hold similar beliefs on the games I enjoy.

There is a ton of factors involved in that “hold 5v6 for 10 seconds” scenario. Who was picked, how early they were picked, what is left of the team, where everyone is positioned, etc.

So, eg, if we are defending Anubis point A, and our Soldier get picked before the fight starts, but our team still have a Junkrat, D.va, Reinhardt, Moira and Zenyatta. If the enemy team is moving together through the left side to engage us in the middle ground, its perfectly possible to hold there without anyone dying for 10 seconds until our Soldier returns via Teleporter. Holding 20 seconds so he can run all the way back from the spawn is much harder.

My experience says the opposite.

It’s really not uncommon for the enemy team to pick 2 or 3 heroes specifically to “counter” my setup (usually, Winston and Pharah/Pharmercy), and that makes their comp predictable and easy to counter ourselves.

For instance, one of my comp partners is a great Reaper. Killing Winston as Reaper is not really a hard job, but its a lot easier when I scatter the turrets around, and Winston is too busy looking for them (because he often switched with the intention to clear my turrets). Ditto for Pharah. If we have a Symmetra in the team, you can expect someone in the enemy team to pick Pharah sometime in the match, even if the map is not favorable to her. Just be ready for when this happens.

You’d be surprised. It still works against diamond players.

Uh… no. You clearly stated:

Her gun is unique, both by being the only lock-on weapon, and being the only basic weapon capable to pierce through enemies. Removing one aspect would already be huge. Removing both is killing a good part of her uniqueness.

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If you take notice of his recent nerfs they actually encourage him to be more accurate. So yes, they are trying to make him slightly less spammy.

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You clearly do. You argued with me that this is conceptual change with implications that it is bad. If you did not mean that then you have most certainly contradicted yourself. Which means that your arguments change depending on the points that are being made.

No, I stand on the side that losing a team member creates a disadvantage. One that the enemy team would be foolish to ignore.

All of which depend on your team failing by dying and the enemy team failing by not taking advantage of it properly. It is still a concept and design based on multiple failures instead of success. This point cannot be refuted.

So failure one. Got it.

So failure number two where the enemy team fails in positioning and engagement. Gotcha.

It takes a McCree. Just a McCree to counter Sym. You do not need winston, mercy or Pharah for this job. Just someone with an aoe effect. which funny enough counters,

Reaper. Symmetra has no strengths that are stronger then that of other options. She cannot hold a position well in any organized play, she cannot out damage the majority of the cast, and you can absolutely melt her due to no real sustain.

Which happens RARELY. It can work. just not consistently enough to matter.

Uh yes, I clearly stated her weapon brings nothing other characters can’t do better. Which speaks toward ROLES. What role does piercing orb fill? Countering barriers? Melt the barrier and EVERYONE can get a shot in. Firing a single orb every 2 seconds is just trash damage and feeding to any competent healer. Melting the barrier instead is a better counter to it then piercing it. Same role. Better results.

Unfortunately, I think your time and efforts might be in vain. I was having a similar back and forth yesterday. I still think mental blocks are up, and as long as that is still around, people will not be truly open to the rework. And I don’t think it matters the path that is taken. The devs have a reason and clearly think it is best. Again, not being open because you personally don’t like it.
Also I still believe everyone is still speaking so definitively on a proposed idea, that devs said they are still working on, with no actual gameplay to base it on.

Regardless of the size of the change, versions of this conversation have taken place with fans of all heroes that have been changed/reworked/tweaked. Genji, Tracer, Hanzo, Bastion, Junkrat, Dva, Hog, Ana, Lucio, Mercy. And now Sym. With all of those different changes, there were players who all had mental blocks up, were not open to changes, thought devs were destroying the game, and their beloved hero, and could not look at Overwatch as a whole, in the long term.

And the long term is making heroes more viable as the game and how it is played changes. If this change goes through, Sym can now be picked on both sides of in so many new situations.
I’m am sorry people don’t like the change, but Overwatch will always be a game about adapting.

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Think you may be right. I am just amazed at how closed minded sym mains are about the change. You would think if anyone was going to be excited about becoming viable it would be them. But I guess you can’t please everyone.

You are right there, there will never be a video game developer that is able to please everyone.

It may be a language issue. English isn’t my primary language, and sometimes I misuse some words. I’ll try to be as clear as I can.

Changing abilities isn’t bad. Removing Photon Barrier was not a bad thing because they gave us Shield Generator that performs functionally the same role, ie, giving shields to teammates. Allowing Roadhog to breathe while moving was not bad. Giving D.va rockets was not bad (unnecessary, IMO, but not bad). Even each of the changes they proposed to Symmetra, individually, would not be bad.

The main issue I have with the full scope change is that it affects everything at the same time. There is literally nothing you can salvagem from any hours you have on current Symmetra. And that is the problem.

If you change everything that compromises a hero, even if they are built over the same concept, they are a creating a new hero.

So, I’m against changing everything about Symmetra. I’m not against one or two ability changes. And from my experience, her gun is the most reliable and balanced part of her kit, thus, if anything can be salvaged from this rework is her gun.

Please, expand on that. Because as a Symmetra player, McCree isn’t specially stronger against Symmetra than he is against any other 200 HP hero.

You want to know what is a major pain for Symmetra? Mei. That chinese devil is by far the hero that gives me most troubles. Luckily, her pickrate is low, and people prefer to swap to Winston (which is easy to exploit) or Pharah when I’m being a problem for them.

I wouldn’t call 70% of the time neither “rarely” or “inconsistent”.

Unexpected pressure in the backline, turns off the feeling of safety when you are standing behind shields. Easy ult charge farming compared to people that need to break the shield before actually getting any ult charge. Pissing off the enemy team because they ignored the orb going their direction thinking it would not hurt as much, or that they would have enough time to dodge it, and forget about it.

It’s really common in maps with hard chokes like Volskaya and Hanamura that I simply spam orbs towards the shield standing at the choke and get a free kill or two because Rein/Orisa big body actually blocked the vision of the orb incoming, and you hit 2-3 people for free. Keep spamming, and people either die (leaving us with numbers and spawn advantage), or leave that position. Both cases open an opportunity for my team to push through the choke.

If we have a flanker, any random orb hit also make it much easier for them to pick a 75 HP target than a 200 HP target. Especially if they are focused on avoiding the flanker than looking at the direction the orb is coming.

Also, the orb do damage to the barriers while its going through it. So its not like you are not helping breaking the shield, in case they want to leave the tank there alone holding that luminous rectangle.

It will be, if your main argument is “the hero you enjoy and have great success playing for more than a year is terrible, and need to become something extremely different”.

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Let me make it clear that I LIKE the proposed changes to her kit. I know I might have made it sound like I didn’t like all of these changes, but I do. What I DON’T like are the proposed changes to her gun.

The biggest reason being that Overwatch WAS a game about inclusivity and diversity. If you’ve never played FPS’s, you can play Overwatch because there’s a hero made for you. If you’re physically disabled but you like shooters, there’s a hero for you.

THAT’S my biggest problem with the change. It feels like they’re getting rid of that original philosophy that “anyone can play our game” to “only good players can play our game”. That’s what peeves me the most. All for the sake of pleasing those who value skill, you get rid of the heart of what drew so many players to Overwatch.

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I think a slightly softer lock than Moira’s would be better, but the only thing I want to keep is her secondary fire but make it charge and move faster. I don’t want it to explode, I want it to pierce and still go through people. I still want her to punish people for hiding behind a shield.

But everything mentioned in the Symm rework is still in the testing phase and nothing is set in stone.

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so it’s the devs fault that you can’t aim?

For balance reasons, if they keep the orb speed and add back the piercing aspect to it, the damage will probably be reduced as well. 125 fast piercing damage orbs going through once a second is a bit too strong.

I advocated some months ago for the orb speed to be relative to the orb size. Ie, the more you charge, the orb goes slower. Full charge orb retain current speed, spamming small orbs will make them go faster.

If the max damage on it is 125, then I’d be fine with 10/25 reduction on it if it means it moves faster.

Uncharged (ie, just tap the fire button) its 25 damage. Fully charged is 125 damage.

I’d be fine with it being 100 damage if it moves faster

It would depend on how fast it goes, and how long it need to charge. Given the current proposed numbers (1 second full charge, 30 m/s, akin to Pharah rockets), I think the balance number would be probably around 60~90. 100 would be stepping into the beam purpose, and would probably be better to spam the orb at close range than latching the beam.

Are you for real? I think you need to go outside for a second. I never said that Symmetra is terrible, not even close. And I never said she needs to become something extremely different. That was never my argument. Get over yourself now. You put words in my mouth, so way to look foolish.

If you’ve read anything I have said you would know I have no actual hate for Symmetra. I said she does not deserve to be in the place she is in now, she should be much more viable and much more powerful. That is what is happening. Sorry you don’t like how it is happening all at the same time. But that’s what the devs think is the best direction.

There is nothing you can salvage from your play, because, and I’ll say this for the last time because I’m done talking to walls, the devs think she should go in a very different direction. Still an area denial hero, but one that plays differently and from what I think, played more aggressively.

They are not creating a new hero, they are retooling Sym. Call it Sym 2.0 or 3.0 but calling it a new hero is you clearly not wanting to even try it out and adapt. I am not trashing Sym for being no aim right here, but her beam is only reliable because it is a 100% hard auto lock and that range extension. A beam that is longer and thicker than Zarya’s, while will no longer lock and will require aim, becomes a very reliable weapon if you try.

As for the orbs, because I want to toss my two cents in for fun. Tell me how many small chokes like Volskaya and Hanamura there are in Overwatch? Not many. We all know Sym is good at tight chokes. BUT DEVS WANT MORE THAN THAT FOR HER. Devs want this new Sym, and I think it could be successful, to be played at tight chokes, medium chokes, and most importantly NO CHOKES! Sym should not be tied to tight hallways and chokes. Devs want Sym viable pretty much everywhere. Even in the wide open. It’s happening. Sorry.

They’re planning on making the orb shoot a little faster than a Moira orb, which I think is still slower than a Pharah rocket. Not sure on the charge time though, although I think they do need to already make her charge fire more of an instant shot once it hits max because there is already a noticeable .5 or 1 second extra charge of nothing before it shoots

He has a stronger close range presence then her and he can eliminate her turrets in a “flash” while at the same time he wins the long range game. She has no chance against any McCree with disciplined positioning.

Hey look, personal stats that to do not speak to the overall condition of a hero. You my friend are called an outlier. Not the standard. We are talking about Sym as she is utilized.

Also did you know that the reason Sym has high win rates is because she is generally switched off of by the end of the map? Meaning that in cases where she is not working she is switched off of and the game is either won and counted under another hero or lost and counted under another hero?
Meaning in those case where she does work its on the first point. So your stats are skewed either way and are a sample size of ONE person.

It does not reflect Sym’s healthy condition as a whole.

Oh no, a projectile that is moving slightly faster then walking speed ~moves to the left~. Anyone who feels safe behind a barrier and drops their guard enough to die to a orb is pretty unaware.

Once again, A barrier that is GONE is better then a barrier that is pierced. There is no denying this.

So now you are going to tell me that Genji’s and Tracer’s are CONSISTENTLY hit by orbs? Are you even trying to make a good argument anymore?

A shot every 2 seconds is going to take a lot longer then that of ANY other dps choice. It is still less valuable then any other dps choice against barrier’s.

Just to make myself clear. I am VERY aware of its capabilties and what it can do. The problem is anything it does can be better served by choosing another hero. I am not saying it cannot do stuff. I am just saying that you are bringing a carving knife and saying it is better then a machine gun.

This is the big assumption that everyone is making and they have not even SEEN how the new weapon works. They have assumed it works just like Zarya’s weapon when in fact it has been described as much thicker. We have no idea what that exactly means for her but I can tell you one thing. Zarya’s beam is not exactly the most difficult thing to place on center mass.

You also have to consider that based on the things we do know is that she is being re-tooled for larger targets. Such as barrier’s and tanks. Which means her targets in general should still be easy enough to hit.

Her current weapon IS the reason she is so bad. Because she has to close to the most dangerous ranges to get any value out of her primary and her secondary is so niche that it might as well not exist at all.

She lacks dexterity and ranged options and in order to give those things to her in a fair way the auto lock has to be removed and her weapon has to be enhanced to serve her better.

But that bright yellow circle in the sky burns. :fire::persevere::fire:

You are defending the devs changing every aspect of her kit. It’s implied.

And I’m telling the devs, in the most vocal way possible, that I think this direction is a bad idea.

Just like Mercy players warned that Valkyrie 1.0 was extremely broken, and the devs went ahead with it, and then were forced to nerf her in the next 5 patches because she was still overtuned.

Just like Hanzo players told everyone that Scatter was much less powerful than people were giving credit, and that Storm Arrow was overpowered, but we are currently in the “complain about Storm Arrow being OP” phase.

This will be fun to type
  • Hanamura
    • Main choke at point A. Can also be shot from the defense position to bypass the choke and hit people coming from spawn through the “main” path.
    • High ground path in Point B. Can be used on defense to discourage the enemy to go through the high ground path, and can be used on attack to dislodge people in the high ground, if a shield tank is up there with them.
  • Horizon Lunar Colony
    • Point A defense you can guard the right side room (the one with the small pack), if the enemy try to get through there instead of going to the space side. There is enough ground to spam there that if they push through, you can retreat back to your team’s safety.
    • Point A defense, the high ground near the exit to space. Both stairs are small areas where you can spam if you see the enemy there.
    • Point B have three chokepoints where the attackers can come through: High ground left, low ground left, and middle. Guard two with turrets, spam the third. If they try to pass through the right side, the wall have a glass panel that let your team see them going through there and intercept anyway.
  • Temple of Anubis
    • Point A defense, right side room. Enough space to spam enemy at the choke, large healthpack a few steps from your spam position, and plenty of nooks to hide your turrets.
    • Point A attack: After going through any side paths post-choke, you can safely spam orbs at people guarding the midground from either side. That area is small enough that if they step out of the way, they can’t shoot at your team, unless your name is Junkrat.
    • Point B defense: 100% worthy spamming the main choke. If your turret alert of them going through any of the side paths, they don’t have space to dodge your orb anymore.
  • Volskaya Industries
    • Point A main choke. You can also shoot through the long corridor in the high ground nearest to the moving platforms. Work both ways.
    • Point B: Right side flanking path near the water. Terrible place to be, but its not uncommon to see people trying to get through there.
    • Point B: Left side upper flanking path (near the mechas), the only door to access that path is very narrow, and with some turrets and orb spam you can stop a flanker or two trying to get through (usually to break your shield gen).
  • Dorado
    • First arch/choke. Works both ways, but heavily favors defense. There is another similar choke in the second section after the tribunal, but usually if they get there, your team just lost a team fight, so not feasible.
    • Third section, you can protect the high ground access. Another very narrow door, and you can spam from a relatively safe distance.
  • Junkertown
    • No good area to spam. Too open for that. But plenty of hiding places for Shield Gen and turrets, so Symmetra still have her value.
    • However, she works wonders against Pirate Ship, and she can easily spam towards the cart and hit Orisa and Bastion at the same time.
  • Route 66
    • You can thread the needle by shooting below the cart and through all the outdoors, hitting people that literally couldn’t see the orbs approaching. That’s true for the whole map, and favors defense.
    • Attack in the second section can spam the high ground entrance from spawn so you have to take damage to reach the main fight, making it easier for your team to keep pushing.
    • Entire third section is a long hall. Spam left or right of the cart, and tell your team to shoot the other side. Works both ways.
  • Watchpoint: Gibraltar
    • You can shoot below the cart. Abuse that in all the ramps the cart go up and down. Works both ways.
    • If your team stop the cart in the second section before the cart gets past the airship, the enemy literally have only four narrow doors to pass through to engage. Two turrets in each, spam the fourth. Rotate through them.
  • Blizzard World
    • Another cart that you can shoot below it, but there is less ramps where you can abuse that feature. Still worthy no note it down.
    • Point A defense, you can just rotate through left and right side of the point. Enemy have to get through one of those to reach the point, and they are narrow enough for your orbs to have good value.
    • Third section you can spam to discourage people travelling through the back corridor, trying to flank your team. Narrow door, long corridor. Also works on attack when your cart is pushing through that first corner, and the enemy can have a long range hero standing on that corridor and you force them to move out of the way.
  • Eichenwalde
    • Main choke to point A. you can shoot directly through the main choke, or get into the stairs to the left and thread the needle between the two doors to hit people coming through the main path.
    • While it’s also possible to shoot below this cart, the only section this is an feasible tactic is when its going uphill in the second section. Just noting there because its an orb spam spot, but its unused most of the time, since you want to guard the castle anyway.
    • Pretty much anywhere inside the castle or in the bridge in the first payload section is narrow enough to deal tons of damage with orbs. Works both sides.
    • Last section is a small corridor again. Same tactic: Spam one side of the cart, tell your team to spam the other side.
  • Hollywood
    • Point A defense you can send an orb through the security room, below the car standing there, and the orb will travel all the way to their spawn room. It rarely hit people, unless your team is defending directly at the choke, but its pretty much the most basic area to understand how strong is her spam game when you can make the orb go unnoticed until the last moment.
    • Last section is another narrow corridor. You know the gist by now: Spam one side, your team spam the other.
  • King’s Row
    • Another payload that you can shoot below it. Unfortunately, only during Winter Wonderland, where the cart becomes a sled.
    • First point defense you can spam through the hotel. It’s not “narrow”, but goes through people’s blind spot, since they are usually focused in my team guarding the point.
    • Entire second and third section is composed of narrow corridors. Spam one side, blah blah blah.
  • Numbani
    • Point A defense: Both right side paths are easy to spam through it (low ground and high ground). High ground can work on attack, but you need to get too close to land a properly orb, and its very risky.
    • You can also shoot below this cart, yes. Best place to do that, however, is after the second checkpoint, when the cart start moving up the streets there. But that is a terrible place to defend in general.
  • Ilios Lighthouse
    • Three narrow paths the enemy team can take to arrive at the point. Plenty of options there.
  • Ilios Ruins
    • Not a good map for Symmetra in general, but you can still spam through the center ramp and the high ground on the opposite side of the cliff. Both are very narrow and with high traffic.
  • Ilios Well
    • Either flanking path is good for orb spam. You can easily shoot from your side of the map and make it travel through the whole section.
  • Lijiang Control center
    • Three narrow corridors to reach the point. Pick your poison.
  • Lijiang Night Market
    • Four doors to enter the point. Easily turret-able, and consistent spam can force the enemy to go through another door, where your team is waiting to shoot at them.
    • On top of that, at the start of the round you can pre-charge an orb on the move and shoot it parallel to the main entrance walls. Very often you hit one enemy or two that is trying to get into the point ASAP. It’s not much, but it is free charge. Works much better if your team have a Lúcio and the enemy do not.
  • Lijiang Garden
    • Bridge or back room. Both are narrow and spammable. You can also spam at the point from either defense position, if needed. That pillar at the center makes the room technically two narrow paths.
  • Nepal Sanctum
    • Every side room have a small circular statue at the center that can be used as cover. There is a small gap in the middle section of those statues. Symmetra can throw her orb through them.
    • She can also orb the high ground near the point, preventing enemy Hog or Soldier to stand there picking your team fighting at the point.
  • Nepal Shrine
    • As soon as she have the point on sight, she can shoot through one side of the pillar, and the orb will float all the way through, threatening the half the point. It’s also a common spot to Firestrike when Reinhardt is approaching. You can do it both ways (approaching the point, or protecting the point)
    • If you are feeling bold, you can also try to flank through the corridor beyond the large healthpack in the enemy side of the map. There is a clean, long, narrow corridor that will hit everyone standing near the main choke, and its long enough that you can retreat back into the healthpack if needed.
  • Nepal Village
    • At the start, people rush through the high ground and fight at that area until the point unlocks. That area is a very narrow corridor. A Symmetra orb going through there will make a huge dent in the enemy team. More than once I got my ultimate this way before the point even unlocks.
    • Main path is easy to spam orbs, if the enemy team go through there. It’s not really narrow, but its Enchenwalde/Volskaya sized, so its doable enough.
  • Oasis City Center
    • Good map for Symmetra because of turret spots. Only spammable portion is shooting at the main path after your team took the point, but its not great.
  • Oasis Garden
    • Both side paths are narrow. Main path is two narrow doors.
  • Oasis University
    • If any team go underground, the corridor leading to its exit is narrow enough that you literally can’t dodge the orb.
    • The side room with the small health pack (opposite from cliff) is also a good place to spam orbs.

Pretty much everyone have a stronger close range presence than her. So, I don’t disagree.

Symmetra beam is a last resort situation, not her main strength. If you let her get close enough for 3 full seconds (the time to kill a 200 HP hero from no charge) without killing her, you deserved to be killed. She have no mobility, no defense, no healing, and a melee range beam. The only advantage she have is damage, and even that is locked behind two seconds of “please don’t kill me”.

Technically, yes. But that is a terrible use of Flashbang. Especially because since people got used to pick Winston at the sight of Symmetra, we started developing turret formations that rely less on stacking them on top of each other, and more on spreading them around, with a focal point where most turrets hit at the same time.

Deathgate turret formations nowadays are mostly used to gather free ult charge at the start of the battle (turreting the spawn door). It’s rare to see them outside of that.

One on one, yes. He have the total advantage on the duel.

In a team environment, however, I classify McCree as neutral against Symmetra. Both heroes work best surrounded by their teams, and probably will be standing behind their respective main tanks. And if at range, Symmetra can throw a barrier to quickly reposition off his sight if she needs to.

So, McCree have the advantage at close range, but close range is not a place where McCree want to be. So, neutral.

Yes, that is also reflected on her higher than usual draw rates. Because people panic when they need to do a full hold, and switch to her in a desperate attempt to hold it down with her defensive prowess.

But I know that is not my case because I use her both on attack and full-time defense. I don’t play her solely at first point and swap as soon as we lose.

Both have their advantages. After all, if a random orb spam kills an enemy in the backline, that is your clue to push, right? We are playing 6v5 now.

I’m saying if I hit a random orb, my Team’s Tracer will have an easier time finishing off her target.

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You aren’t worth working with. I could keep going but you are blind. Stop caring about Symmetra and start caring about Overwatch as a whole. That is your problem, that and your mental block.