Depends on range, which, Widow’s has no falloff —and there are (too) many maps with extremely long sightlines and optimal perches. Soldier generally has to at least be in hook range to do his optimal DPS. Widow does not. Either way, TTK isn’t really the focus of my point, despite me mentioning it.
There needs to be a reason because this game only has 8 tanks, and many more people who do not want to play that role, based on how strong, effective, or incapacitating (fun to play, for some) many of the DPS heroes are. Widow’s damage without falloff against larger tank head hitboxes is egregious. In my mind, there is no logically defensible reason for these combination of factors, hence asking why things are this way. I’m certainly not the first person who has felt like this, and won’t be the last.
Based on how few people pick up tank or how many are pushed out of the role due to frustration/fatigue, Widow (and the defence of extremely high burst damage) is one of the reasons. If Widow can one-tap most of the cast (or hit them hard enough to force them out of the fight) with zero help, why does she also need the availability to also two-tap the heroes that are supposed to be ensuring others don’t get one-shot? This seems like (and very likely is) bad design, and I’m asking for a logical, valid, undisputable reason for it; or a change. She’s one of the only release heroes that hasn’t been displaced by power creep without adjusting her, and the cause for that is perhaps because she has consistently been too strong.
you are assuming that widow is the reason the tank role is unpopular when there are many more plausible reasons. the point remains that every single tank will only get two shot by widow if they make a very poor play. you have enough time and tools to prevent getting two tapped.
And this is false too, as everyone who actually plays widow knows. You are speaking here about ideal circumstances and exaggerate actual situation.
There are not (too) many long ranges on most maps.
Most of long ranges that are present are also very situational and highly depend on the enemy team taking exactly that route.
It should also happen so, that when in that short window of sight enemy has no shields, no one in front of them, no bubble, no lamp, no anything.
Requires a target to have no healing at the moment.
Requires a target to not react to first headshot and raise a shield/hide.
Requires you to actually put two headshots and then some on a tank. Who, I remind you, move/jump/change direction of movement just as fast as any other heroes (except very few who are faster than most).
So, basically, this thread takes a very situational possibility and raises it as a common day problem. If enemy widow tries to shoot down a tank before going for healers - she’s playing into your hand.
Finally, about counters. Sure, there are not a lot of heroes that can counter Widow on her terms, as in long range duel. But there are heroes that can make her life a living hell. Namely, Sombra. Just plant a translocator on a medpack nearby, stalk Widow and shoot her whenever she has a sight on your enemies. Even if she’s not dead - relocate on low HP, repeat. I guarantee you it annoys the living hell out of a Widow, you don’t even have to kill her to make useless.
The question wasn’t how do I get around a Widow as a tank, it was why can she two-tap most of the tanks? As in, why is this available to do in this game and how is it logically defensible?
And since they want me to not separate posts per person, to Sangoma:
Respectfully disagree against a tank’s head hitbox.
I already answered that though. she can do it since she can only do damage in infrequent bursts. the number of shots is irrelevant since the players have enough time to do something about it. its quite bizarre that you can point to widow 2 shotting tanks as a reason why tanks are less played when the other roles get 1 shot and most have no defense besides natural/tank cover.
Which part is false? That Widow’s scoped shots have no falloff? Or that there are too many maps with extremely long sightlines? The first is fact and the second is maybe subjective.
I never presented it as an everyday problem, I asked why it was necessary. My premise is it’s ridiculous she can two-tap most tanks, because it is. There isn’t a single reason I can think of that her damage should have the availability to do that from range, regardless of the frequency in-game, so why do people defend it? It’s my opinion this can and should be toned down, hence posting. The issue isn’t that it barely happens, it’s that it can happen at all. Could you (or anyone) explain why it’s healthy for this game to have a hero who can do 300 hero damage every 1.4 seconds at range?
In my ~2000hr playtime (and sometimes having to face Widows in Diamond to T5 in qp from grouping with IRL friends) it’s happened enough for me to obviously be frustrated enough to post about it. I’ve played a lot of Zarya and Hog. I also have 200+hrs on Ball so I can dislodge most Widows on most perches. It’s not about being able to counter her, it’s about her full potential.
You’re trying to make the case that every 1.4 seconds is infrequent? Ability CDs make abilities infrequent. Hitscan weapon rate of fire is generally quite frequent. Especially if you can full-charge scope shot in under 1.5s.
Well, I didn’t ask about her DPS interactions, I asked why she has the availability to 2-shot most of the tanks, and why that availability makes any sense in this game. Thanks for responding, but I think that we’re going to keep going in circles.
As a tank if you are lettign a widow 2 tap you the fault is yours, every tank can make a widow not 2 tap them. Unless you are the last tank in a 1v6 and trying to go back to team widow shouldnt 2 tap you.
Just a example of what you do after widow shot hits you apart from cover.
Rein - Shield up move to cover
orissa - shield fortify
sigma- grasp, shield the widows face or your face
hog- breather and go into a room
dva- dm boost to cover
Ball- you dont have a critbox on ball form on top of that have shields.
zarya - bubble throw aprojectile at widow take cover
winston - bubble
Also note there is a charge time between each shots, so once you use dm or bubble there is a time before another proper shot comes.
This is taking not taking into account on ways you can harass widow as tanks with ball or winston, even dva a bit if you have proper heals or another hero pushing with you.
A tanks effective hp is a lot more than 2 shots if they use their abilities well.
Honestly ball is the best solo tank to harass widow and kill. Winston dva require resources on them or dive together and often can have counters in team.
Ball along with widows positioning will always be away from CC heros like brig cree etc and can harass her easily even a mercy pocketed widow.
Defensively sigma is the best tank to shut her out by shielding her sightlines while also attacking on his own at others.
The answer is simple: it isn’t necessary, but it is completely ok because the actual chances of this happening are very low. And changing this in any way will nerf a hero needlessly.
This has been the answer I’ve come to fall to myself, and it’s unnerving.
I don’t agree here. There’s quite a few things I think they could do to keep her viable but reduce her HS damage a little bit to the tanks. Lowered dmg values for subsequent headshots in a certain amount of time (on tanks only); change how her scoped crits interact with only the tanks; longer recharge after you crit a tank for max damage; change how she interacts with dmg amps; etc. Even if they use any of those options, I wouldn’t mind beefing up her mine on tanks (allow teammates to see them, or have it infect others around the target), or even (I like this least) unscoped dmg buff to compensate a little bit.
Because given enough time and over enough games, problems that exist here in theory eventually make their way into people’s realities. I’ve personally been 2-tapped by GM+ Widows (even lower ones that that, headshotting tanks isn’t hard) enough, the absolute worst of which was on Winston (years ago, before the headbox reduction, nice to see this issue still exists) while in the process of diving her on the spaceship on attack Gibraltar from the top left doorway and I was dropped mid-jump before I hit the craft in a 1v1.
You never forget your first time But there have been enough times since that I obviously made this topic. It’s something the friends I play with often complain about, they just never use the forums.
She must have spotted you beforehand, otherwise there really is no time to charge two shots fully. After that shield should have you covered. So, something went wrong there, clearly.
And the reason I don’t think anything should change about Widow’s damage against tanks is 2-2-2. If she takes one of two DPS slots, she should be able to drop tanks like Soldier or others (given the ridiculous circumstances you provide, of course).
I think widows kit has flaws from the release of OW. Warning: Don’t want to trigger anyone it’s just a personal feeling…
What do i mean is, that widows issues are the same that Doom, Buff-Genji and Hanzo provide in their kit. The ability to instakill someone without using an ult. This negates 1/3 of the team, the healers, since against instakill you simply can’t heal.
But back to widow herself.
With her in the game it doesn’t matter what you are playing, since she can 1 tab 80% of the roaster (namely the <250 hp heros) from distance.
In a game that is about teamfights this is questionable.
Well I would agree here, when we look at it from a 1v1 noone else around perspective, that she is oppressive.
But she also is during 6v6. Far away on an other side it mostly is impossible to shield against her and get at least one hit (a max one) as a tank. When there are 5 others now, it is like she does 2 shots (also at 45% scope the dmg is at 150 or so. pretty high if you ask me)
I like how everyone on the forum casually thinks that Widowmaker’s shoot only with headshots, 100% of the time, and don’t mention the fact that if it’s not a headshot, that is 60 damage.
Again, to make a subsequent 45% charged shot you need 0.5 seconds before it starts charging again, then 0.4 seconds to charge. 0.9 seconds. A fully charge shot is 1.4 seconds, while dealing twice the damage. So it’s not profitable to make uncharged shots. It’s almost like Widowmaker is already a thought through character with mechanics that hinder you if you don’t take time to charge shots.
Top ranking widow on overbuff has 48% scoped accuracy, with 24% crits. In order to get a headshot a shot should be a hit AND a crit. So, we multiply 0.48 by 0.24 and get 11.5% of headshots. With BEST widow on overbuff.
So yeah, I assume it’s ok how she is, because it’s hard to pull off and HIGHLY impacts her overall usefulness. I fail to see how this is wrong as long as Hanzo exists, who just casually spams potential headshot one-shots.
And let’s not forget this game has more than enough tools to counter this.
But there have been enough times since that I obviously made this topic. It’s something the friends I play with often complain about, they just never use the forums.