Why am I seeing people complain about supports having “free value” and “easy/braindead” abilities when that’s the case for the entire cast?
The same people that downplay Kiriko, Illari, and Zen landing two (2 slow charging, moving, and/or projectiles) headshots while saying stuff like “It’s easy, you just have to spam head height (which is different for different characters and changes all the time due to player movement and/or abilities) and get easy kills” while also saying this makes them too powerful, are the same people who will try to justify Widow and Hanzo one-shotting and give any example possible as to how you can “counter” getting instantly killed by them and how hard it is to do for them.
The same people who complain about supports having “free value” and “braindead abilities” will ignore all the “free value” and “braindead abilities” the other two roles have and here’s just a few non-support abilities that provide value and aren’t hard to execute:
recall
dash
deflect
blink
storm arrows
sonic arrow
jump jets
bubble barrier
DM
Doomfist’s entire kit (half-joking)
dynamite
coach gun
mag nade
combat roll
biotic field
helix rocket
concussion mine
steel trap
overload
turret
fortify
nemesis form
etc… (these are just a few, there’s plenty more)
Why is it that other roles/characters can have useful, easy abilities yet when it’s the support role, it’s unjustified?
There are valid complaints about supports such as nade and ironically in certain cases, sustain. However, why are some of you downplaying anytime a support out-duels you when you have superior/more tools? Everything a support does is supposed to be challenging and difficult to get any value from, just because? You think the other roles don’t get “free value” or have “braindead abilities” as well?
Nobody plays OW for it’s complex and difficult to use/punishing kits because that was never the focus of the game. If you actually cared about that stuff so deeply, you would be playing another game.
It always makes me laugh when a Genji main cries about Kiriko. It is like, bro, if you do not enjoy all the damage and prefer utility… By all means, swap characters???
I always find this funny because of how much work it takes to play support.
DPS only care about shooting whats in front of them. They don’t even really care about looking back for flankers because they simply don’t have the tools to deal with flankers anymore (turrets got nerfed, CC got nerfed). It’s no longer their job.
Supports have to keep their eyes on the front line, the backline, and whenever someone dives. They’re expected to keep everyone alive, peel for themselves and the other support, contribute damage directly or through boosting, and have some of the harshest cooldown management in the game. “Suzu is a braindead ability” that when you misuse it, the enemy team can execute a team wipe safely.
Using recall doesn’t get any value in the same way that Anti-nade gets value by securing a kill by preventing heals
Or the way that Kiriko and Baptises immortalities can save someone from getting killed.
Securing an Elimination or Preventing an elimination is the highest value a player can get in the game and since supports have utility to allow/prevent that they have the highest value utility nothing on any other role even comes close.
In a way dynamite is just anti-nade but with the D.O.T instead and no anti-effect but I would agree that dynamite has a decent value provide nothing compared to support utility though not even close.
The rest of these don’t really provide any value they’re just self survivability tools or some supplementary damage abilities.
Like for example you’ve listed recall and coach gun but in a way they’re self survivability tools meanwhile Cleanse applies the same effect as Tracers recall an invul frame to her entire team.
While also healing everyone on her team for 50hp 50x5 = 250 it heals more than tracers recall on a similar cooldown while applying the same invul effects.
Personal value that keeps yourself alive and in the fight ultimately is team value, if you’re alive you provide the team with more than if you’re dead ^^
The way I see it, everything everyone is doing is providing team value, even just being afk on point for example you’d be distracting the enemies for a second while they took the free kill. Just that’s not providing as much team value as someone whose trying to keep themselves alive XD
Is comparing Ashe keeping herself alive with coach gun really comparable to Kiriko saving 5 players with Suzu from death blossom?
Since reapers ult hinges on his self heal and getting quick damage in a suzu can ruin his whole ult since he wont get any healing everyone will shoot him he can’t move very fast and get obliterated.
Can we honestly fairly compare these two abilities which btw coach gun is a very similar cooldown to Suzu despite being terrible in comparison to suzu
Is that value equal to saving 5 teammates or preventing a kill?
Saving yourself is definitely not equal to saving multiple teammates recall can save yourself then you have to get out and wait for that cooldown to come back.
Suzu can save your entire team allow them to stay in the fight and win you the entire teamfight recall can’t do that neither can coach gun.
Exactly, which is why a damage character, who can kill insanely fast, is designed to counter aim, and has consistently been meta throughout the 7+ years of the game’s lifespan, being able to reposition, heal, and do so with invulnerability is huge value not only for Tracer, herself, but also contributes towards her flanking attempt due to her forcing cooldowns with her initial engage and then regaining health/repositioning to finish off whoever she’s dueling. Recall is a huge reason Tracer has consistently been so strong it’s value is incredible and her being able to keep herself alive so easily without relying on a support contributes heavily to her team.
If Tracer gets someone low in their backline and is low, herself, she can recall and finish the job or retreat/reset but if some other damage characters are in the same position, they can’t heal/reposition themselves as easily and are usually just SOL.
cleanse doesn’t reposition kiriko’s team and if they’re all grouped up to get hit, they are susceptible to many other dangers that they all can’t blink away from after the fraction of a second is over.
afaik, suzu doesn’t heal anymore unless cleansing a negative effect. Also, Kiriko isn’t getting constant 5-man cleanses/suzu hits but Tracer is always using recall.
Recall shares the same cooldown as Protection Suzu, and only affects Tracer.
Not sure which dash you’re looking at here.
Deflect lasts 2 seconds and only covers the front, and does not cover explosive damage or beams.
3 Blinks is 15 meters across 9 seconds. Boosters from D.va can travel in any direction for up to 20 meters and on 4 second cooldown. Jump Pack is 21 meters on a 6 second cooldown.
10 second cooldown with the smallest projectiles in the game that collectively do less damage per arrow/per second than Ana’s Biotic Grenade.
Guardian Angel.
A fairly useful and very appreciative ability on a Tank.
Defense Matrix is on a Tank.
Actually very useful explosive damage, but the burn damage is so low than even Lucio just has to switch on healing and breath and it’ll negate most of its damage. Alternatively, just hits AMP and no damage occurs. Both last the same cooldown too.
Soundwave is on a shorter cooldown.
Useful.
Firestrike does 100 damage per target in a line, and Reinhardt gets 2 charges of them for a similar cooldown.
Firestrike is so good and powerful that it completely outshines all other Damage-based line abilities including Swiftstrike.
Useful, and not really replicated elsewhere.
Command Shout is better, for just two seconds more for its cooldown.
Not what it once was, but still useful.
Basically, the issue comes down to the fact that most Damage-based abilities have a damage component associated with it, that when compared to the proper sources (that is the Tanks), feels less than adequate or slightly more restrictive than other abilities presented to the Support-role or Tank-role.
Take for example, Genji’s and Hanzo’s Wall Climb versus Lucio’s Wall Ride. Or take for example, Kiriko’s Wall Climb and the associated mobility presented to her compared to Swiftstrike and Lunge. Substantially more space traveled, for a cooldown shorter than Swiftstrike, and the ability to pass through walls and clear some debuffs.
Let me try to Swifstrike Kiriko, ahh, she used Protection Suzu. Well I’ll just Deflect her Kunari back at her head. Oh, she Swiftstepped to an ally before the Kunai hit her back, well I’ll just Wall Climb away and try another approach. Oh, Kiriko follows me and Kunai’s me in the head. Well I’ll turn around and finish her off more quickly than she did, except Kiriko already tossed another kunai that travels faster than my shuriken and without Deflect, I can’t defend against it.
Though, there is the likelyhood that Kiriko will miss headshots frequently, since her kunai is… larger than Genji’s shuriken.
Not really. Healing is easy, though the multi-tasking may be hard between the split focuses; Supports still generally engage in a lot less risk than Damage-role heroes do. Tracer’s Pulse Bomb needs a sticky for maximum impact, but Ana just needs to press a button and hope she doesn’t accidentally hit Lucio with a Nanoboost.
Biotic Grenade doesn’t guarantee a kill. This argument doesn’t really work. Recall will defend against a Biotic Grenade, but Recall can’t break a Sleep Dart.
Preventing a death is actually fairly low value because of the amount of defense in the game. Just pressing a button is enough to prevent deaths in most cases. The real value in death prevention is sustainment through healing and defensive abilities and play. The longer you keep someone alive the more likely they’ll be able to make some kind of return in getting an elimination. There’s a limit, however.
Yep. Blink, and her high fire rate and low cost ultimate are other reasons.
Ironically, Tracer tends to have more defensive skills than most Tanks or Supports do, and that in turn, has allowed her to dominate the metagame.
Protection Suzu still heals, but now heals less on regular intervals, and heals more on actual clearing of debuffs.
So the funny thing about that is throughout the entire games history dps has only been meta during the start of OW1 about season 1-3 everything after all 30 or so seasons of OW1 and all of OW2.
The meta has been define by supports or tanks.
Examples : Double shield
Example : Goats
Example : Bunker
Example : Tripple tank meta
And I would argue supports define the metas since they’re what allows the metas for example
Goats isn’t possible without brigitte.
Dive wasn’t possible without Ana.
Double barrier wasn’t possible without AOE heals and immortality sustain.
Tripple tank wasn’t sustainable without insane heal numbers.
But you could lose Dva or Winston and still play dive with wreckingball.
So damage characters can get kills sure but supports also deny kills but you know support utility sets up kills and prevents kills that’s why they’re the strongest role at the moment.
You can’t kill through all this amount of healing so what is super strong anti-nade which stops healing allowing you to get kills again.
And what counters anti-nade? Suzu which stops you from being able to get kills again.
Not really cleanse often allows you to get your teammates to full hp and can single handedly win a fight recall is never going to win a teamfight all it does is save tracer.
You can’t even argue they’re on the same level unless you’re Plat-
I don’t know because I haven’t played much during this season since its miserable because supports so broken.
Kiriko is probably getting 2-3 on average if she isn’t using it on herself, which is way higher value than recall still.
You can’t shoot while in the recall animation but you can shoot while in suzu invulnerability.
I’m GM all roles, I’ve played Kiriko at GM and I’ve played Tracer at GM the value a character like Kiriko can output in her damage, her utility and her healing is off the charts from anything tracer can do.
You know tracers value comes from distracting supports since they’re so broken just distracting them wins you fights you don’t even have to kill them.
If you distract supports long enough you win, distracting dps doesn’t win you the fight.
Tanks, who require DM or Nemesis form to be viable and not just some useless ult farm sponge, and if the dps heroes you’ve listed were to lose one ability and gain Suzu instead, that hero would become overpowered.
Let’s take Kiriko as an example; even without Suzu, she can still heal, teleport, deal DPS, and has a game-changing ultimate.
How can you list these abilities without considering their value? Additionally, some heroes need mobility to fulfill their role and avoid becoming easy targets, ensuring the team doesn’t end up in a 4v5 situation.
Kiriko without Suzu doesn’t immediately turn the team into a 4 v 5, there’s always some other thing she could do, and Suzu is already a powerful ability, without it, kiriko can’t compete with the other supports, but she is still viable to compete with the dps and tanks you listed (if they were to lose one of their mentioned ability).
Go play Tracer and Genji for 30 games each(60 total) and let me know how easy their kits are. Going to bet 9 times out of 10 the braindead support abilities are going to negate all of your effort even if you’re playing out of your mind and thinking that you are playing well.
It’s not exclusively a support issue. The annoyance comes from when you’re about to kill someone who should die but they get bailed out of jail. This happening once is not a big deal, it’s the stacking of these abilities that gets annoying. Also, life grip is the most frustrating because players that play way out of position get away 100% guaranteed with no trade off. Bad play gets rewarded.
Yea I played a bit of Lifeweaver after these buffs and with him added to the mix, it has to feel awful. Both of his cooldowns counter the 2 most meta tanks’ ultimates and they’re short cooldowns lol
yeah support is op and the grass is green
i thought symms 100 dmg orbs would be overtuned but alas, there are supports where i legit mitigate all that just by existing