Bastion is the reason my friends tend to hate overwatch. I think its the heroes they play. I recognize he isn’t good and he doesn’t bother me, but I do acknowledge that with an uncoordinated team he is brutal to play against.
Transformation delay hasn’t changed in years.
There’s just far too little time. You can’t even try to escape there’s not enough time, I’d love to try to escape but a factor is the flight time, you react to being hit but then the third grenade may already be in the air heading towards you!
If junkrat is moving towards you as he shoots then the grenades will ARRIVE at a shorter interval than the fire rate.
Okay the answer to that question is:
He Doesn’t!
You’ve set up a “dichotomy” but allowed a reasonable alternative, I’ll take that reasonable alternative.
“Either a meteorite is going to hit my house or it isn’t”… I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that my house isn’t going to be destroyed by a wayward asteroid.
I cannot abide this argument as it just makes the game incredibly homogeneous.
NO HERO would be allowed to have an overall difference in sustained movement, every hero must “keep up” and everyone must be precisely the same. Any hero who is exceptionally fast can’t use that speed in any other way other than to get to the front line as soon as possible even though they know that would mean a staggered arrival.
Why not use your speed to arrive at the fight at another angle?
I love all the military history videos on youtube they show off things just like that, you have a slow element like foot soldiers that advance directly on the enemy then you have a fast cavalry that use their speed to get way past the enemy and attack from the sides or rear.
This demand for heroes all having the same speed isn’t making the game more interesting, it’s making the game incredibly boring as every hero must use the same zerg rush tactics.
It’s not that your friends aren’t good, you don’t need to be “good” you just need to be adaptable.
You need to stop treating Bastion like any other hero in the game.
People want to fight bastion like he’s a Soldier 76 who just happens to be standing there. That’s not bastion. They’re unable to realising how it’s different to have hero who can’t easily slightly move their position.
I’m endlessly disappointed that people play games like Overwatch which are so open and clear about how the whole appeal of the game is how varied all the opponents are but then people just want to reduce every combat down as if it’s just call of duty where all the weapons are pretty much the same.
Bastion isn’t bad, this hero is different.
And all these reworks are just trying to make it irrelevant how bastion is unique, make sentry an increasingly marginalised mode so people will increasingly just not have to deal with how Bastion is uniquely different. They don’t want to think about bastion’s downsides.
So are you saying he has no problem surviving right now? Because he does.
The game has a major problem with characters being too heterogeneous to the point where they can’t fulfill basic team duties.
Infantry can still move; think McCree. Bastion is the equivalent of a fixed gun emplacement that gets left behind on the advance or retreat, because being able to give and take ground is just too important.
There’s a difference between zerg rushing and not moving at all. There’s a reason why infantry get mechanized with IFVs and APCs and artillery becomes increasingly motorized and self contained, and even towed artillery when fully emplaced can still use indirect fire and range to keep up with friendly forces as they advance.
Every hero has some problem surviving. Any hero that didn’t would be OP.
Yes, bastion is in a below average state but the problems are not so insurmountable that Bastion categorically should not be played or him being chosen should be tolerated.
I’m not going to buy the false dichotomy that either a hero is in an ideal state and should be played and not buffed or needs buffs and therefore should NEVER be played.
Emphasis added by me.
That’s the whole problem, the idea of things being so “basic”. It’s such boilerplate reductionist strategies it’s just “rush B!” or “Zerg rush”. Just run directly at the enemy.
Bastion can still move.
Like infantry, bastion struggles to move while in close combat with the enemy. Generally if the infantry tries to flee when fighting the enemy this is called “a rout” and the entire group of infantry is destroyed as it is chased and attacked.
The point of the infantry unit analogy was that it’s ridiculously simplistic to say all units have to advance at the same speed, other units have to move faster as they have to take a longer route.
Except bastion IS NOT FIXED!
Your entire argument is based on a fabrication, you’ve built your house on sand, it’s a lie that bastion can’t move and all that logically follows from that will not make sense.
This is like doing a long mathematical equation where you begin with an error. Stop right there. I don’t want to hear the rest of your reasoning, it doesn’t matter if every subsequent function is correct it won’t give the right answer. Garbage in. Garbage out.
if anything bastion fits the self-propelled artillery analogy.
Artillery is NOT fired on the move, it takes a moment to set up and can quickly “shoot and scoot” bastion can do that. Though sometimes the self-propelled artillery may take too long to set up or pack up or need some other mitigating factor to enable them to “shoot n scoot”. That’s bastion’s state, in this analogy, being able to shoot n scoot at all is great even if there’s some problems.
What bastion can’t do is what’s analogous to an IFV, continuously maneuver and fight the enemy.
He’s dangerously close to that.
This is inevitable unless you’re scrimming in the same 6 stack for hours a day.
When done early with cover fire and calm it’s called regrouping. Bastion lacks the mobility to do this and either stays put or gets routed.
Not adequately.
There’s a world of difference between Tracer and McCree.
Neither are most fixed emplacements, despite the name. It just takes too much equipment, effort, and time to dismantle and move them. Bastion is the same.
Shoot and scoot implies that you can actually engage the target. Bastion cannot fire through or over walls, nor does he have spectacularly long range until the enemy has long moved into cover. He has an absurdly short engagement window for such an absurdly long scoot time.
If you want to see shoot and scoot done right look at Widow.
If they are zerg rushing like idiots then they can get to the point early when it hasn’t unlocked yet then the team full of smartypants who don’t just run head on into the enemy attack them from multiple sides where they can’t use cover nor all rush in one direction. Then they each rush back, trickling in one at a time.
No it means shoot… and scoot.
There must be shooting then some scooting.
That’s beside the point, it’s an analogy, not an exact equivalent. You can’t find an exact model as things like smokescreens are impossible in overwatch due to inherently unrealistic things like hitmarkers.
By analogy, self-propelled artillery must move as the very act of firing reveals their position.
The proper response in such a scenario is for all the zerg rushers to focus down a single target, so every single component of a split comp needs as much mobility the game has to offer or their weakest link will be run down and they’ll get snowballed off the 5v6. This is best demonstrated in goats vs 3DPS OWL matches prior to 2/2/2.
Why shoot something you can’t meaningfully hit?
You’re the one missing the analogy. Artillery can effectively hit things when stationary. Bastion cannot, at least for any reasonable length of time.
@Dysvalence + Treb
You both have some good points here among these blows traded, but I have to wonder what the point is by now?
The TTK in overwatch isn’t that low, you don’t need to have 6 people all simultaneously attack one target.
Certainly not if you’ve got bastion.
This just doesn’t bear any resemblance to reality, if you’re refusing to shoot the other 5 enemies then you cannot use your own fire to limit their capability so unless you can somehow divide them off they’ll be really effective against you.
Bastion can meaningfully hit.
Did you only play bastion when he had a fixed 3 degrees spread?
I don’t know, bastion is being attacked because he doesn’t fit with one random person’s views on how is the only way to play Overwatch.
Yes you do. Focus fire is one of the core fundamentals of the game. Getting that first kill dramatically tilts things in your favor by ~40% and we have 3+ years of pro play and stats attesting to this.
No he can’t. You graze someone for 50 hp before they retreat behind cover, group up, and either rush you or run down a teammate.
Old bastion could actually hit harder; the old spread easily extended his effective range by ~50% and headshots pushed it further. You could actually secure medium-long range kills instead of charging enemy support ults. That tradeoff is definitely not worth it considering how bad config tank works with the rest of Bastion’s kit.
I do hope to get meaningful discussion and conversations out of the forums or pass on feedback that the devs may or may not read, but at the end of the day it’s foolish to treat it as anything more than a massive time sink.
You’re taking it way too far.
You’re saying the entire 6-hero team needs to focus fire on one hero and for that reason anyone slower than the fastest hero in the game is trash tier and needs to be reworked to keep up with Tracer’s rollout speed.
It’s called positioning
And if they do retreat into cover, that’s good, you’ve forced them to be passive rather than continue to press the objective. I’ve learned how to exploit this, when they run behind a wall I can tell they’re going to emerge on the other side, I’ve repositioned to be waiting for them, 5.5m/s is fast enough.
Running into a minigun is generally a bad idea.
Even heroes with fast mobility options it’s again down to positioning so they can’t easily get within range.
Dude, that was YEARS ago.
And that was TOO GOOD, you could get a burst of fire into their head and deal over 200 damage in 0.23 sec.
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Bro just move him to tank and remove the minigun. Work on his kit to be more of a tank and thats it. I don’t wanna go back to double shield bap days where Bastion as in 2 out of 4 of my games.
Yeah, let’s just remove anything that makes Bastion into Bastion… bro?
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You want bastion to be bastion or to be viable? cant have both.
By what proof? The testing we’ve seen so far amounts to little more than two pebbles tossed in a lake.
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That’d be a bit like moving Mei to tank but taking away her ability to freeze except for with her ult.
It kinda defeats the whole point of the character.
If you don’t like how oppressive the minigun is how about the ammo capacity going back to 200 rounds?
Bastion as never been remotely close to getting as high as even 1% pickrate in the entire time since Baptiste was live.
Bastion’s pickrate actually fell lower than ever during their height of popularity of Sig+orisa.
“Do you want to be left handed or do you want to get good grades in this class? Can’t have both.”
That’s how arbitrary and discriminatory you are.
You’re blatantly lying to discriminate against something or someone just because they are different and saying they’re only allowed to succeed if they conform.
Bastion is different.
Bastion is a left hander in a class full of right handed people, and teachers are just refusing to consider that a left handed person could read and write and paint just as well as a right handed student.
Bastion is even literally left handed, the only hand he has is a left hand.
Never said Tracer speed. McCree speed would do. Ana speed would do. Most of the roster doesn’t have elevated base speed.
Bastion is insanely loud. If that works it’s because the enemy is legitimately bad.
Positioning is the very problem here. As the battle progresses the value of a position shifts, and Bastion cannot keep up.
Running 6 people into it with various degrees of shielding and peel will kill Bastion.
You said old spread right?
I’m honestly not too sure of this, but I don’t particularly care to defend that level of damage output. What matters is that he actually had the range to utilize high ground and lock down sightlines, using range and burst to compensate for the long sentry entry/exit animations.
Overwatch is also lowkey notorious for excessively omitting audio cues over range or loss of open lines of sound pathing. And at the ranges Bastion is likely to be set up from, repositioned to take advantage of the next choke the enemy is likely to pass through, his footsteps will almost certainly be omitted.
The combination of the two was kind of what was so troublesome, though. Being able to deal, what, 375 dps with a fairly tight spread meant that he could deploy and quickly take out a highly distant Pharah.
I personally thought that the big Bastion patch failed to allow for the added nuance it should have. Imo, it should have retained the range/accuracy, but as a function of reduced DPS, much like it is for Soldier, with rapid and severe accuracy bloom.
I can see why they decided to do the inverse, as ambush-Bastion tends to want to prioritize close to intermediate range, but it irks me that at minimum they didn’t put in a Secondary Fire option to (relatively) quietly spin up the gun without actually firing, or just make that spin-up automatic (especially if they chose to actually make it quiet).
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I’m not lying. Genji’s pickrate is beyond high, but in 10 matches yesterday i only saw Genji on enemy team in 3 games and Bastion in a day was being played a lot despite his pickrate being low he was showing up each 2 games in my matches when Bap was op. I want all heroes viable, but current version cannot be buffed. it is just not healthy for the game and no one can convince me otherwise. He needs a complete overhaul, but can keep some abilities like self repair and tank configuration (maybe even let minigun as channeled ability instead of all time). There are ways to balance him in his current state, but blizzard can’t do it without breaking him, so its best to swap his role. Unless you want him to be nerfed after a week of being viable.
Forums complain about Genji forcing ppl to swap entire comp to counter him, but Bastion did the same but worse.
Dude… bastion has the EXACT same speed as Ana!
They’re both 5.5m/s.
No the sound doesn’t travel, trying to pick out the footsteps from 20m away with all the shooting, explosion, yelling and other crap is almost inevitable.
I cannot have any reasonable discussion with someone who keeps manipulating the circumstances to and moving the goalposts.
As in how sentry gun was for almost all of 2017 and 2018.
In that time the spread was fixed constantly at 3 degrees “spread angle” which is a total spread of 6 degrees. That’s a 2m wide spread at 19m.
Then the spread could shrink but VERY slowly, after firing continually it would shrink to 2 degrees = 1.4m spread at 20m
Then in May of this year Sentry gun’s spread started at 2.7 degrees (1.89m spread at 20m) and shrank to 1.8 degrees (1.25 degrees spread at 20m) and shrunk much faster, after only 1.33 sec of firing.
It’s 100% okay to change your opinion when you get new information.
What you said held a lot of water a while ago but the area that bastion’s minigun bullets land within at 25m has massively shrunk from a circular area of 5.4 metres-squared to a circular area of 1.9 metres-squared.
That’s a nearly THREE FOLD increase in the density of fire.
That’s not how statistics works.
That’s not how reality works.
It’s like the people who insist the crime rate in their area has gone up when it hasn’t but they say that new laws are needed to clamp down on the crime wave that doesn’t exist.
You’re just going by your gut, your selective circumstance and selective memory.
Saying things like that is why you can’t convince others.
Why should others be open to being convinced if you refuse to be convinced?
When and if the announced nerf comes through for Genji he will still be overall better off.
Genji was already in a great state.
Yet this is about nullifying Bastion’s most obvious counters, you don’t realise how illogical you’re being.
If bastion’s counters are less effective… why would there be MORE pressure to switch to his “hard counters”? You could just play against him with your usual heroes and probably still beat bastion.
That just doesn’t make sense.
You’re saying less powerful counters means people have to play counters more.