Baptiste primary fire as strong as S76

Baptiste’s average damage+healing=18k just numbers
76’s average damage+healing= just over 18k

I’m not saying that healing has the same value as damage, or vise versa, but you get the point here right?

The amount of value that a hero can provide is entirely proportunate to the players using them

Also, A gold Mercy with a top 500 widow is going to do much more than a top500 Mercy with a gold widowmaker. Keeping someone alive forever does not gaurentee that they will do anything

4 Likes

Let’s nerf all hitscan

i don’t think he can shoot both at the same time

Soldier’s damage would go down too if he had to choose between healing and damage like Baptiste does. But giving him the heal alt fire would strictly be a buff.

Yes he can.

Baptiste can shoot his primary and secondaries at the same time.

2 Likes

Can you read? How is this moving the goalposts when this response is to someone else? Someone whose posts I clearly put before my answer… Is everything okay?

:joy::joy::joy:

You’re living in another world if you believe the forums control the balance decisions. Not going to touch this anymore.

^
My point again, if you don’t realize that these things had to do with actual stats and more informed discussions I don’t know what to say. Just to grab two out of the list both Brigitte and Sym were statistically overperforming. Brigitte received the most nerfs in Overwatch’s history because she was the most broken character in Overwatch’s history and her stats and performance from in game on ladder to OWL showed that. This is a dev’s reply about Sym.

You would take something like this where a dev makes it clear they’re operating off of their own statistics and opinion and say hurr durr, the forums got Sym nerfed.

I’m fine with keeping Baps damage and shooting speed. But maybe remove one clip from his ammo.

I mean honestly I don’t even want Bap nerfed. Or if he really becomes unbalanced I’d rather them lower down his healing as they did with Moira. Its good to have support options that can actually do a decent amount of damage and most Baps aren’t going to sit and spam at the barrier. But as a principle he shouldn’t be able to do that and also have some of the highest healing in the game.

It’s just troubling overall that we get these powercreep issues on all of the roles.

Go in the shooting range with him and line up with the ally and enemy bots, you can continuously DPS without losing any healing.

It’s somewhat situational but very consistent against barriers and works great in instances where you have allies in splash distance of the enemy.

The person you replied to also only talked about DPS values and said in reply to you (and I quote): “I’m just talking about damage output specifically”.

So yes, I can apparently read better than you.

Strike two on the pettiness, btw. Once more and I’m done with you.

“Nuh-uh”. Got it.

Gotcha, so I’m just gonna drop these here:

So yes, Blizzard DOES balance characters based on player sentiment as well as their own opinions and statistics. Again, there are a number of changes they’ve made where reducing frustration for players was the main goal.

For example:

And so on and so on and so on.

If we want to talk about things like power creep, then we cannot also talk about the fact that many of the subtle, incremental changes given to characters over time (which, by definition, is the “creep” part of “power creep”) that were aimed specifically at lowering frustration.

And these are just the time they flat out stated “frustration” was the chief motivation. This doesn’t included cases like Baptiste or Brigitte where a character may be too weak/strong in certain areas AND result in frustration to play as or play against, but the actual word “frustration” wasn’t mentioned in the patch notes. But just because the devs don’t flat out use a word or phrase verbatim doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a factor in the change.

2 Likes

Baptiste has to dish out heals while doing damage so he is def not putting out s76 levels of damage

Baps really doesn’t play well as a DPS. He is extremely bad at self defense close up. Soldier has rockets to burst down a diver or sprint to get away. Baptiste can blow immortality field on himself (wasting his most valuable ability), but most heroes who would dive him can either trivially destroy it (Genji, Tracer), knock him away from it (Dva, Doomfist, Wrecking Ball) or just outlast it (Winston). He can maybe jump to higher ground, but this is clunky and easily might get him killed, and many dive heroes can just follow him there.

Basically Soldier 76 has abilities that allow him to position as a DPs but doing so as Baptiste is suicidal. And when positioned as a support he generally cannot get good shots on enemy heroes unless they are badly out of position.

The weapon buffs are good and allow him to punish opposing heroes that position badly, particularly tanks, but they do not in any way make him a DPS.

Immortality field is better than Soldier’s damage output+ healing station where self defense is concerned. Because you have to kill it.

This is just untrue. If you jump on Bap as Tracer/Genji and he throws up immortality field you have to get out. Chunking it down as Bap is shooting you is asking to be killed.

Again, this is the same argument that people had about Brigitte “not being a DPS”. Yes we know that she literally wasn’t a DPS, didn’t have as much damage as DPS but functionally she could very easily be run in the DPS slot accomplishing much more than many DPS characters.

Now I’m not saying that Bap is the same way where he invalidates multiple DPS characters, but he most definitely invalidates Soldier and there are few reasons that Soldier would be more valuable than him in a DPS slot. Bap simply offers so much utility that the small increase in damage from helix rocket pales in comparison to all of what Bap has to offer.

The primary reason this is bad is because it’s blatant power creep. Characters being able to do it all is just bad for the game. Much less reasons to go Zen and Ana when you can have high healing and high damage with Bap. We’ve just had an example of this with Moira where high numbers just becomes more beneficial than utility at some point.

Do you play Baptiste much? I can get a few kills on him, but he doesn’t feel like a pseudo-DPS killing machine at all. And really I feel like I only get a lot of kills if the other team is downright stupid about their positioning and barriers.

And honestly I think the more important thing Soldier has over Baptiste is sprint. Baptiste is just so easy to kill in a duel and you can’t waste immortality field on yourself all the time, it’s almost as bad as emergency Transcendence.

You dont think about if you do heal and dmg at once, you have to reload more than only dmg.

Please read my post because nowhere do I say he’s a killing machine. Soldier isn’t a killing machine either.

The point isn’t whether he’s a killing machine or not, the point is whether he makes a more valuable DPS than Soldier. Which effects more than just Soldier or Bap. It’s about how these pieces fit into the entire game. A support with high DPS capability, that also has extremely high healing and great utility is going to become a problem and needs toned down in some area.

Sprint is trash. Sprint, helix rocket and healing station is just straight up inferior to exo boots, being able to heal on right click and immortality field.

I really think you need to play him more. Soldier’s toolset simply functions better in a DPS capacity. If you position and play Baptiste as a DPS you will die quickly.

And saying that Baptiste’s healing makes him more valuable doesn’t work either. You can’t use both parts of the kit effectively at the same time, barring double spamming (which, due to aiming limitations, is mediocre healing and damage that is only good as barrier break). So if you are using his healing, you’re not replacing Soldier. At that point you might as well be comparing Soldier to Mercy.

1 Like

I’ve played both extensively. Just like Brigitte made a very effective damage dealer and killer despite having low damage values Bap functions in the same way.

You don’t need to use them both at once, you simply need the option to be available. I said in another topic if we give Ana a watered down Widowmaker’s gun that can still one shot squishies you guys would be arguing that it’s okay because Ana still has to primarily spend most of her time healing.

Just having high amounts of damage or heal means there are going to be situations when you can utilize one or the other’s effectiveness greatly. Baptiste isn’t going to always be spending his time breaking down barriers but for the points where he can break the barrier or DPS he’s going to shine. Soldier cannot decide to just put out great healing output if he currently didn’t have a target to burst down. Bap has that option, Soldier does not and that is why he becomes outclassed in overall value.

1 Like

Soldier is balanced around having some of the best escape tools always available. Sprint unlimited is HUGE and people always discount it when they make these comparisons. Soldier is weaker than other DPS for that same reason.

Hm? His damage and healing ammo is separate though? And he can (and should imo) turn auto-reload off. Also pretty sure the damage clip out paces the nades? Can’t confirm rn though.

I wasn’t really remarking on his balance or damage vs DPS myself though, merely that he indeed does not have to stop healing (particularly in the barrier situation) and the ability to do both is one of his greatest strengths.