What about two reworks to sym and she’s still f tier
How do you even manage that?
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They took out the nerfs to a Lucio balance change patch, twice.
Jeff isn’t a programmer let alone an engine programmer. Jeff is a game designer. He can see the bugs just the same as we can and he can work with the engine programmers to make sure those bugs are prioritized but he himself cannot physically sit down and spend all his time attempting to fix the bugs because he is not a programmer.
Many players see the affects of bugs and just assume the fix is as easy as, for example in this situation, pulling up Reinhardt’s shield code and adding some line saying “if Reinhardt has his shield up Reinhardt doesn’t take damage” but that’s not how things work at all.
Maybe the bug is somehow caused by the transition between Reinhardt not having his shield up and having his shield up. Maybe it’s tied to the general code that handles transitions from not using an ability to using an ability. Maybe it’s tied to the general code used for handling active abilities as opposed to code that handles one time key press abilities. Maybe it has something to do with server code time prioritizing damage being received over the time the shield is activated. Maybe there’s a bug with the shield’s collision model.
The point is there’s so much going on under the hood that something that seems simple to many could realistically take a massive amount of time and effort to identify then find a solution that they at least initially believe does not cause more unintended bugs.
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Again maybe so. Just odd that he’s been plagued with bugs for so long and no response. I get he’s a designer but you think as the face of OW he’d go “Hey yeah we know this hero has bugs, we’re trying to pinpoint where they are but it’s going to take a while. We’re doing trial and error”.
I mean…the guy now has the be unusable in PTR’s practice cause apparently it’s gotten so bad he crashes the server.
100 hours, and even though he’s a designer, he’s also the head of the OW team, and not once mentioned or brought it up?
Like I said you can believe him and I may be letting my bias cloud my judgement but to me…I just can’t be convinced he’s has even a fraction of that time on him because of that.
There may be more…like yeah there’s definitely more going on, but I just don’t trust Kaplan simple as that.
How is that hard to believe? it’s literally part of his job.
If anything he’s probably played far more than those stats such as playing on untracked demo copies of the game,alpha games,beta games, playing on unlinked console profiles or tournament and PTR server, etc.
The reason a character can have a fair amount of bugs for a long time has nothing to do with how much the dev’s play him - The devs have a professional environment where they’ll have to account for their time and make tough choices such as delaying fixes for some characters in order to achieve other goals.
I can’t speak for the dev team on why it took them so long to address Rein but let’s be honest those stats are not going to be accurate because he’s going to have played more, not less.
They do occasionally go into this sort of detail, we can see that Rein has been on the radar for a very long time.
They have hinted in the past that they are a little scared of giving us too many details because players like to change information from them informing us how things are going into promises and then raise all heck about them not fulfilling promises that they never made in the first place.
You don’t have to trust Jeff, that’s of course your own personal decision and you have every right to making your own decisions. To attempt to spread this idea that Jeff himself is a liar and would post faked stats to push some sort of agenda based only on the aggravation stemming from in-game bugs and balance decisions is something I fundamentally disagree with. Without past evidence of Jeff purposefully lying to the community your allegations are conspiratorial at best and downright malicious at worst.
It cannot be denied that Jeff and the Overwatch team have seemingly overlooked miss-balances and bugs for long periods of time. Whether they had reasons behind why those things were either miscommunicated or not communicated at all to us, or if the team simply did a poor job of identifying issues and came up with poor “fixes” for issues is up to speculation. It is very clear to me that in the Reinhardt situation, they literally just released a full fundamental rework of how his ult functions engine-side. That has been communicated and made clear. I can see that they are at the very least trying to fix his bugs, even if they have not been 100% successful as of yet.
While I personally trust that the Overwatch team will eventually fix all the bugs and imbalances that I see and complain about myself, I can see the logic in not trusting the team to do so, or at least not to do so in any sort of time frame that seems reasonable, just based on past performances. I understand that people are human, even the devs, and make mistakes and I can use that as justification myself. I can also understand that people have paid for this game and they hold the dev team to a high standard because of it. I cannot understand why a person’s personal morality is coming into question because of these issues though.
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Dont forget the like 4 months of only hanzo + grav + mercy combo.
Or the 2 years of pharahmercy abusing on high ranks of ps4
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Those were his most played tanks
I personally think that both reworked Sym and Wrecking Ball still need a couple more months of play before we can really say for sure where they’re at balance-wise and what changes need to be made. For example, I’ve been extremely successful with Wrecking Ball to the point where I not only believe that he can be effective in games but that he can straight up be the turning point between a win and a lose but I also see people saying he is very under-balanced.
But to address your question, have you ever worked on something really hard only to fail? Then you try again and fail again? Even something you’re considered a professional at or something you’re just very skilled in? If Symmetra is still f tier in the coming months that’s essentially exactly what’s happened.
Yes.
You’re only just realizing this?
So add LoS, add a cast time so that Tempo Rez is encouraged. x5 Rez’s were effective in lower ranks because we tend to blow ultimates when not necessary, which Mercy punished. So just make those big rezzes harder to pull off, so that it isn’t as punishing top low ranks. I’m sure there were better options than to swing for the fences.
As for the SR exploit, the original was fixed, and I don’t know what the new one that developed was. Do you mind clarifying for me? All I could find was that Mercy seemed to gain way less SR than other supports after the rework.
Pretty much what I said above.
They could always increase it’s value in other way, like adding a burst heal at the end to living team mates, or increasing Mercy’s speed after it to allow to get away.
Again, I’m not a Mercy expert. She’s not even in my Top 5 most played. I recommend checking out Titanium’s thread for a suggestion I find to be good. It’s currently the most upvoted post on these forums.
See, the problem that arises with this is that they put all of her utility into one ability. Now because that ability is so strong, they have to take away parts of her to kit to compensate hence the HP/S nerf. We all know it wasn’t because of her healing that she was meta, it was Rez + Damage Boost combined with Dragon Strike. Damage boost is nice, but why pick that when you could go Zen with discord, or Ana with Anti-nade? The only reason to pick that is left is Rez, which is why that being her utility is a problem. She has nothing else.
If the ultimate doesn’t have any effect, and the article literally says that you wouldn’t see a Mercy without a Pharah…I think it’s a fair conclusion to make. Why would you play a character in a high ranking game with an ineffective ultimate?
Pro players can also be wrong. They’re human, they have biases, just like you and me. And again, Reinforce is a Main Tank player saying that a character he does not play is unfun. You see what I’m saying here? if it was a Pro Mercy player saying she was unfun, I would be more likely to believe them because they have played the hero and put the hours into said character. Unless reinforce was a Pro Mercy back in the day, I’m not going to hold his opinion on a character he doesn’t have experience on too high.
While I do like Seagull, again, he’s speaking from playing against her, not as her. There’s a difference. And he says that “he could go and hunt her down but then who would kill them team?”, which just seems like he had a bad team. Most of his issues with Mercy could have been fixed with Los requirement and a slight cast time. So no, while I like him and think he’s a good player, I don’t hold his opinion as law.
Not really the best example to use. xQc is notorious for his extreme hatred for Mercy. The guy is known for being balls to the walls toxic (whether it be for comedy or for real). Keep in mind he never voted for the rework either (he mainly just screamed FIX IT FIX MERCY with no real suggestions…), he hated rework Mercy arguably more than Mass Rez Mercy. Again, while he is a good player, he is speaking as going against her not as her. Different than the point the article was making.
Literally just going to repeat myself again. Against not as. The quote from Reinforce was “Mercy isn’t fun to play”. As in “She isn’t an enjoyable character to play yourself”.
…So literally like she is now? Because that’s where we’re at. Mercy’s winrate is in the trash. Her pickrate is falling. Her only real role is a pocket healer. So was she really worse off then?
?
Did you not see that I wrote LoS requirement there? As in Line of Sight requirement? As in she can’t hide behind walls to rez anymore?
No insta cast also means they can’t rely on the Rez going off 100% of the time. Discouraging “Lazy Play”.
Sure, they may rez into another team wipe, but if they can force them to use more ultimates. So next fight they can come back with their superior ultimate economy and win the next fight. Lose the battle, win the war. If the enemy team wins without using ultimates, well either your team messed up or they’re just better than you.
I think it’s quite obvious at this point that they’re not going to remove Rez. If I meant Mercy being more engaging I would gladly trade rez (can’t say for all though). Rez is pretty deeply engrained in her kit, so it’s hard to imagine them removing it.
Clarification needed.
We really looking through my post history? Fine. I post a lot on Mercy because it’s a topic that I find interesting, a subject that is fun to debate. Besides, what I meant was, I’m not like Titanium or Aria rose, who will spend hours into this topic. I don’t have the same passion level as these people. I’m more of “While I think Mass Rez is healthier for the game, I probably won’t be too affected should it not”.
You said and I quote :
Indicating that it had to be removed when it could have been tweaked. We know why it was removed, but the argument is that these problems are fixable and didn’t require a mass rework.
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“Mercy rework was a success”
then proceed to nerf her.
This statement is really raising to meme status
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And yet hide and Rez is more problematic with this kit =/
Not really, you just need to heal/damage beam and not worry about storing ult charge.
I’m talking about the moment.
I mean, Mercy has always had a place in pro play regardless of meta due to having damage boost on right click. Which pairs well with phara and widow, two hero’s that will always work on specific maps. No reason to downplay it’s existence just because she also has the best utility in res on cd.
Are you trying to say Mercy wasn’t meta prior to hanzo’s rework? She worked great in dive with the new mobility and survivability. Her healing did in fact completely cancle out winstons primary. She was a staple in spam meta with damage boost on rat. Sniper Meta, damage boost and GA, plus rez to negate picks.
You’re actually downplaying Mercy’s utility to uphold an argument.
You’re assumption correct or not has nothing to do with that graph, I’m not sure why you’re trying to move the goal post here.
There wasn’t pro Mercy players. At all. The most famous Mercy mains at the time were youtubers who made guides on hiding spots. It should also be mentioned being high elo =/= pro.
That’s on you then. There was not one player at the time who was a Pro Mercy because of how weak she was in the pro scene. You won’t get a “pro” mercy saying what she needed, because they didn’t exist.
No, she’s not worse off at all. We’ve got die hard mercy mains trying to play her in sub optimal situations. if you play moira in a phara comp, you’re going to do bad. If you play ana and you can’t aim, you’re going to do bad. If you play Mercy in triple tank, you’re going to do bad.
She’s exactly where she was before the rework, minus the ultimate that was, to put it nicely, bad, with added abilities and strengths that make her more engaging then she ever was prior.
You really should read the whole thing before you respond.
That’s not how things work at all. If you got res, you’re sacrificing an ultimate on your side in order to have res. And that still doesn’t acknowledge that tempo ressing on an ultimate ability’s charge rate was proven to be not worth running at the pro level.
I personally don’t think it should be removed tbh. I don’t mind res, both mass res or res on cd.
The article clarified it. She was still being one tricked. High elo Mercy players still continued to go for big res in less than optimal situations. It still wasn’t worth running on the pro level.
The article clarified it. She was still being one tricked. High elo Mercy players still continued to go for big res in less than optimal situations. It still wasn’t worth running on the pro level.
I’m just going to copy and paste this.
she was reworked because res was unfun to play against. why not?
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I’d argue that Symm’s rework was a success. It’s taken a while for people to learn her, but she’s entirely more viable in more scenarios then a “cheese the defensive point with teleporter” strat that she used to be.
Current Torb rework seems to aim to do the same thing. Time will tell how that goes.
As far as on topic, I think Mercy’s most recent heal nerfs were kind of a lame way to nerf her and she could use a little more back, especially in the ultimate area, but I never want Mercy 1.0 back. Maybe just try a Rez refresh on ultimate use again now that her healing isn’t as good to start?
I wonder how many people who are asking for that actually played back then… nothing felt worse then executing a well coordinated attack to have Mercy just hiding at spawn then flying in to negate everything, it was horrible design.
On Reinhardt, I can’t comment on why he’s been so buggy. I’ve seen admissions from Blizzard that some of his code was very early on and needs a lot of complete rework to get in line. Hopefully they’ll get there.