It’s surprising they went for roles then, as tanks and supports are typical victims of such “flashy plays”.
True, but they help setup for the most powerful combos. At one point, I thought of whether they should just drop the role system altogether and just give variations of a defensive CD and self heal to the kits of the roster, where it doesn’t already exist.
> I’m not saying it’s balance, good, or anywhere near fine, etc.
> but it’s not bad.
so are you using it to judge the balance of the kit or not? 
the point I’m making is that “someone got to top 500 with X” means very little in determining how good a hero kit is. like we blatantly had counterexamples of sym1.0, sym2.0 and bastion who all had bad kits but despite that still had some players reaching top 500 with them.
I didn’t change my point, you tried to change mine. 
my points with the numerical proofs on orbs have been consistent:
- as an aimed weapon fire they’re bad due to how much leniency they give targets to to dodge them due to how slow they are and how orb size mathematically isn’t enough to compensate that (as shown by proof about the capability to dodge at 15m, which is by no means long and obvs gets worse the longer range we consider)
- as a spam weapon fire, it’s grossly worse when you compare with various other projectiles in which can be summarised by dps which it’s grossly under other projectile aoe fires and even worse than a single target non-damage hero weapon fire.
thus blizz needs to double down on 1 of the routes.
YOU on the other hand tried pervert my points via:
- “you’re saying it’s only 1v1’s”
- “you’re saying people only focus on sym orbs during fights”
- “you’re saying orbs are only fired on single targets”
I gave you a near complete analysis of the kit showing how bad it objectively is notably in her own capability to get uptime. her kit legit is low effective range, low sustain, low burst AND low mobility rn, i.e. low in everything amongst the cast. also supported by logic and various proofs.
these very detrimental aspects of sym’s kit are not trivial.
anecdotes
meanwhile in GM, the rank where balance matters more to players, sym has low pickrate, and struggling to be in top 10 winrate in like the past 3 months despite all the selection bias factor that should be spiking up that winrate.
I haven’t ignored anything tho. in fact the points I argue are all in context of a wider context.
- orbs legit are terrible spam compared to various other spam weapon fires from how inconsistent AND low dps it has in comparison
- orbs objectively very easily dodged despite their size because they are that slow. being in a team fight doesn’t change the fact that orbs take longer to travel distances compared to most other projectiles, and so much longer that orb size doesn’t compensate as shown in the numerical proof. of which makes it a bad ranged option and as a aimed weapon fire
- the increased pace of the game does demand more frequent adjustments of tp location and/or purpose. hence why current infinite tp is
because it objectively can’t be relocated or repurposed as good as it was before. - having such a serialised high down time on her core uptime tool is highly detrimental making her terrible especially in a cast where most heroes have decent frequency and uptime in their core uptime tools to not have such problems.
no because your “counterexample” had no baring or substantive link on any of my claims or logic.
1 Like
Then the point doesn’t apply to you. Simple as.
At no point have I changed what you said like you saying I mean top 500 proves sym’s kit is balanced and good. I have said in my opinion points I feel are out of context and extreme examples these are my words, not yours.
This is an example of 1v1 and no AoE damage is considered. You use it to prove your point.
You want to make examples like comparing sym’s orbs to a mercy pistol to prove your point and not consider AoE dmg in that case. Yes, I’ll use bad examples that you use to back up your presumption to prove that you are wrong.
The only way it could be guaranteed is if they watch every orb and give it enough attention. If you want to take stuff to the extreme like in the cases literally saying @15 it is impossible to land a direct hit. Then yes you are saying people at always focused on sym orbs.
- orbs would be terrible if it was her only part of her kit. Sym shouldn’t be Junkrat like, Mei shouldn’t be Widow.
- With focus it is easy to dodge many projectiles in the game, sym’s orbs still have value in holding space and give sym a ranged option and keep people’s attention. Don’t consider this then you can’t create a balanced argument.
- Your comparison doesn’t consider destroying tp at different times so it is flawed. Team tp’s through and is destroyed or you tp bomb and destroy. The cooldown difference then is much less. Also, recontest tp’s more and make up for this difference in my opinion. You may not like the playstyle, doesn’t make it trash.
- Her down does suck and I can agree somewhat on this but it comes with a price if your in a place where you have 3 turrets out and 3 on cooldown it’s a huge advantage and I feel is a part of her risk/reward.
Yes, counterpoint some that you call anecdotal with more anecdotal stuff.
Top 10 vs tanks and heal as well … (so she’s in the top 30% of all heros.)
She is the 5th highest winrate dps. 5 (top 35% of dps)
Don’t know what you’re trying to prove with this. I don’t really take the data to prove anything seriously but if that data was accurate I’d say she was balanced but hard to play and be done. I do know overbuff data and winrate data isn’t a good way to judge balance only to know what’s popular.
Either way, this is a massive sidetrack. Like I said if you only think sym is niche in one place in the game in one comp and now are using overbuff stats to back that up. I don’t feel you have a fair and balanced opinion on how Sym is. Disagree that’s fine.
If they do it, game becomes just another DPS fest, resembling CoD or CS:GO.
you were 100% saying trying to justify her current poor state just because someone made it to top 500 with her.
talking about dps doesn’t mean 1v1. it’s simply the rate of damage output over time from a weapon fire from the perspective of a typical target.
and if a dps is given a weapon fire that’s supposedly a spam weapon fire, it legit makes no sense why it’d have lower dps output compared to a support hero. unless of course it’s meant to be aimed burst but very evidently it’s bad at that too. hence why orbs are bad.
not to mention the tangent you wanted to pervert my points into is further flawed because:
- you can’t actually provide the dps in the case of >=2 targets being close together anyways because the splash damage gradients/fades out the further away it is from the center and none of us have the equations for that.
- you ideally want to be hitting directs for the most damage done to a target anyways because of that splash falloff gradient
- the inconsistency of orbs proven makes it also inconsistent to hit multiple enemies at once with splash given the leniency to dodge them.
and again, even when comparing with other splash projectile weapon fires, orbs are still terribly lower than those other splash projectile weapon fires in terms of dps.
newsflash: people spend waaay more time being >15m away form their enemy than being within 15m.
the proof was saying that EVEN AT 15m, that low of a range, one can physically guarantee taking only falloff damage, to show how inconsistent it is, not just at 15m, but even when further away
i.e. at >15m range where most of the match time is spent (and where sym spends most of her time when tp is stuck/down and when the team isn’t pocketing her), how much aim can possibly matter for sym orbs just 
I put that "let alone considering longer ranges" there for a reason.
you say I keep excluding things, but it’s actually you who doesn’t consider what’s being pointed out in a wider context.
and junkrat’s primary isn’t the only part of his kit either considering how much he relies on his mines.
making orbs better doesn’t make sym gameplay more about orbs anymore than it already is. i.e.
- her primary’s highly situational and won’t ever not be situational unless blizz decides to rework sym into a tank to be an indian zarya in order to reasonably give sym the necessarily sustain to allow that
- turrets are inherently going to be more passive than the rest of her kit due to their fragility + delays demanding enemies to go to them moreso than vice versa
- tp will still be an important part of letting sym getting angles, switching dps subroles, accessing areas most others can’t, etc.
like orbs have been her staple weapon fire for a long time now already.
you physically can’t dodge quite a few projectiles in some ranges where you can with sym orbs (e.g. you’re not going to be able to physically dodge a perfectly centered shot from ana’s unscoped primary, orisa primary, hanzo arrow, zen orb or mei icicle in like about 15m range), so no, your claim of “With focus it is easy to dodge many projectiles in the game” simply isn’t true depending on what range we’re talking about.
no, orbs are terrible at zoning. simply being a slow projectile doesn’t mean it zones better. what makes a weapon fire good at zoning is being able to threaten more valuable area to the enemy longer.
a infrequent projectile that slowly gets to the valuable area and can easily side stepped is not good zoning.
it’s notl like junkrat’s projectiles that can linger in a space to occupy it and neither does it have decent firerate to build up decent area coverage from spam. neither is it like snipers or ranged hitscans in being so consistent while having high damage to demand targets to take cover.
- sym orbs being infrequent means it can’t build area coverage through spam to occupy a decent chunk of space when it reaches the enemy.
- no, the orb size defs doesn’t compensate this esp given how the orbs have a sniper-tier low fire rate. i.e. 1m diameter doesn’t compensate a firerate of 1 per 1.25s with how most heroes can walk 5.5m/s and some soon to move faster in OW2 (dps apparently getting movement speed passives)
- it having 0 linger mechanics means it won’t stay in the space long. i.e. it either flies past them or disappears upon hitting something. you may argue “but slower means stay longer” except we’re talking about a 1m diameter sphere amount of space moving 25m/s, like it’s not holding any particular area down from snail pace speed and neither is it like hanzo ult where it’s so long that it compensates to effectively occupy an area.
- and as shown above with the numerical proof, the orbs obvs aren’t consistent/aimable to get the hitscan threat effect.
it’s simply bad.
- before, downtime from old tp could’ve been 2s depending on how much you needed to interact with a particular tp cast, but now it’s always >=10s no matter the use case, no matter when you destroy it: 10s from serialised cd, extra if you pre-placed and having to wait for the moment to come to interact because during that waiting time, sym is effectively experiencing down time.
- having to destroy tp asap to minimise the above mentioned increased down time is a whole lot worse compared to old tp where you could put it down, have all the flexibility/combat options with tp up while the cd is ticking away irrespective of that uptime even for tp bombs (lets you have the flexibility of disengaging and reengaging without worrying about whether you’ll have next tp in time for when you need it) and esp for team tps (because old tp would come back sooner for sym to use in the fight).
- perma “contest”/“spawn” tps are legit moreso of a self fulfilling prophecy given how it leaves sym without her core uptime tool throughout the uptime + another 10s
I honestly don’t know what exactly you’re talking about/referring to here because the key bit are so jumbled. are you talking about turret bombing?
like considering old 3.0 tp literally had to same use cases as current tp (arguably more tbh) because legit you place and interact with tp the same way, the reward hasn’t changed from the infinite tp nerf. what did change was the risk because of that heightened down time. but when you consider how pre-infinite tp nerf sym was underperforming across various metas despite having lower risk for the same reward compared to now, there’s legit 0 point, 0 reason, 0 logic to just increase the risk and have 0 increase on the reward.
plain and simple, tp got trashed.
anecdotal (adjective)
(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.
Hi I’m not in GM unfortunately so no, it’s not personal accounts/experiences I’m pointing out here. but heck, even if I was GM, using stats from overbuff isn’t actually anecdotal anyways because they’re not my stats, they’re the accumulation of others’.
you claim her winrate is high for her yet it only matches most of the top picked generalists this month AND in the last 3 months despite her really low pickrate.
so very clearly she’s not being proportionally stronger in her niche for how narrow it is (i.e. she’s terrible as a niche hero).
even if you argue “she’s unpopular” to excuse her really low pickrate, it begs the question of why isn’t her winrate even higher from having more selection bias to skew it higher (less mirror matches)?
if you go “but look at low ranks” then you’re logic is flawed from the beginning (about any kit can be considered good or “fine” if you assume high enough incompetence).
- it’s the only data we have available
- analysing her kit and comparing to others shows how bad she is compared to others. of which is reflected in the stats on overbuff.
considering I went through math based arguments, plainly compared heroes’ kits against each other to show the large disparity between sym’s vs others’ kits, pretty sure I’ve been as fair and balanced as one can get.
2 Likes
Again I made it clear a few times
Not gonna explain it again. Make strawman and argue with them. Like it’s amazing you still try to alter my point after you acknowledge it.
(In reply to rest. I’ll write in short hand and not quote you over and over)
Orb: It makes sense, hero’s have different kits and strengths and weakness. Sym isn’t a spam hero.
If you want to use the word guarantee sure a player could, while getting shot in the back by a ball and a phara shooting from the sky. Like I said extreme points to make sweeping statements.
You want orbs to be better great maybe provide a more balanced argument than mercy does more damage and your point might have weight.
Yep cherry-pick projectiles, I said many not all. Again extreme example’s sweeping statement.
Decent zoning at my ranks and decent zoning in gm games I’ve watched.
Yes, you don’t like how current tp works. In its current state, it can’t do the same things but it can do different things. It’s not trash people use it to win team fights and coordinate attacks.
Downtime thing, simple a setup sym on defense is always stronger than a sym on attack. (basically, there are other things to it to)
Overbuff… sample size is bad, winrates don’t reflect people switching been proved multiple times the data does not reflect game balance accurately. If it did the data would say she is in the Top 5 of dps and top 1/3 of heroes. (It doesn’t prove that at all) (many other topics have proved this look to them though I’d imagine you’d make take 1 extreme example and make a sweeping statement )
If you think comparing sym’s right-click to mercy pistol is fair and accurate. On that alone, I’ll blanket disagree with any conclusion you draw.
Excuse any gramer or spelling: since I’m writing what I said a few times, I don’t want to put the effort in.
Quite possibly true. Although, the design of roles with built in weaknesses/dependencies, I believe, has run its course. And anytime something steps outside of its role-niche and steps on the turf of another, people just get mad lmao.
“That support is doing too much damage!”
“tanks are just beefier, better DPS!”
and honestly, at times, the nerfs and buffs that have gone around, have oddly enough added more fuel to those existing fires. (except the supports doing too much damage complaint lmao people forget, supports in other games, do poke damage).
Because in other games, supports are actually strong at supporting and keeping their team alive through rough times.
It’s the split.
New Sym “mains” like the New Sym.
Old Sym mains are left with scraps. (and not even all the scraps)
1 Like
People really downplay power fantasy. There’s are many reason that certain characters are more popular than others.
Dps will always be the most popular role. It makes sense. It’s a first person shooter.
Power fantasy also influences this as well. There’s a reason why Genji, Ashe, McCreee and Widow are such popular characters compared to someone like Sym. Would the average person want to play as a sexy cowgirl or cyborg ninja or would they rather play as an architect?
It’s also the part of the reason why tanks and supports are less popular.
If ninja fox girl ends up being a support character, she’ll likely be extremely popular no matter what her actual kit is.
Unlikely. Players tend to avoid babysitting other players, which is what supports are about.
1 Like
I respectfully disagree. Do I think she would have genji level of popularity? Absolutely not. But there’s a reason genji has always has had such a big player base and pick rate. It’s cool to play as a ninja.
If they can land the look and feel of a character who makes you feel like a badass, they’ll be a really popular character.
Ana being the first healer that required mechanical aim pulled a lot of people into the support role as well. Not quite the power fantasy thing, but there are ways to make supports more engaging for players that typically would only play DPS
Supports feel like a badasses, only if they prevent plays, and that upsets DPS majority.
Mercy used to have that feel with her mass rez, and we know how it ended.
They would play supports like DPS though. They aren’t interested in watching teammate’s health and wellbeing.
Some other games have that problem - Battlefield, for instance. Combat medics often heal only themselves, since most players on them got no interest in rushing towards injured allies with medkits.
1 Like
This is why I wish echo had been a support. Being able to transform into a death machine occasionally after supporting your team would have been really cool and made for some fun plays.
It could work, but there is still mindset issue.
DPS and supports are mostly opposites - DPS focus on enemy players, supports focus on allies. And it’s not very common to have both in same player.
1 Like
I mean all of the most recent supports have tried to incorporate DPS. Moira and Brig both encourage DPS into their healing mechanics. Problem with those two heroes is they lack “mechanical skill” so people say they’re OP.
Moira also suffers from character design and weak power fantasy. I love her so much, but thinking of someone playing overwatch for the first time, it’s hard to imagine someone wanting to play as an morally-grey middle-aged Irish scientist.
There can’t be “power fantasy”, when power budget is split between healing and damage.
Problem with Moira is that her design clearly discourages healing - your healing is limited, but your damage is not.
We can have power fantasy of savior, or destroyer, but mixing them in same hero tends to fail.
I still think a cute ninja character with a fox pet as some part of their kit that required mechanical aim for something would draw people in.
That being said, I would be very surprised if that hero doesn’t end up being a DPS because the devs favor that role to a very apparent degree
If they require mechanical aim for healing, that healing would have to be massive. Which would leave little for “damage” part.
Mobility does help to attract people, but only if hero still packs a punch in other areas. If we take away Genji’s damage, he would be funny, but useless, part of the team.
1 Like