I’m gonna hold out hope for balance without laws. I might be fighting a losing battle here, but it’s a fight I’m not about to give up on.
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So the game should just keep going down the path of the selfish players always get their pick? Just hold entire games hostage team comp wise being they want to be the 3rd DPS or they refuse to play main tank?
It’s just ok for a Brig player to vault up 1200+ SR but then a patch later try to shift over to DPS?
we are talking about core game structure issues and those effect everyone. It’s only online that people seem to feel this do whatever you want, you can’t stop me vibe is ok. As if some how there is no social contract in place as you see with any other random hobby level of sport/game.
plus one doesn’t have to like it but at the same time we can’t just wave off the impact of OWL. If it’s best for OWL to get 2-2-2 locked, odds are we get it too. If they can fix the 3-3, we get that too. If viewers LOVE 3-3 and view count goes up, nothing changes.
How we feel about it as pleb players isn’t worth as much.
forced 2-2-2 makes the game easier to balance and it allows everyone to play who they want. There is no reason to be against this.
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I gotta say that if they do go through with it I hope that it’s a separate, Solo-Q only mode to start. That takes care of 99% of the “fun” issue while leaving the game intact for non-solo players and solo players who are fans of the current system.
If they decide to expand from there then at least they’ll have had some data on how it works in practice before pushing it on everyone.
If they instituted 2/2/2 you would see some cool stuff happening for dps like more mitigation, higher hp, more sustain, etc in addition to more tools for healers and tanks.
It just makes legit sense to put restrictions on team compositions so you can open up some interesting abilities.
Sports does this already in order to create balance and strategy. For instance, there are fairly tight rules on how you can setup your offensive line, and your linemen can only do specific things, mostly entailing blocking defense and not handling the ball unless fumbled.
In hockey you have a goaltender who can do special things like handle the puck, but you can’t have more than one.
etc.
Balance requires rules, and if you want to see OW balanced correctly, some rules of the game need to be set like 2/2/2 or maybe just force at least 1 per role be filled.
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I don’t disagree that that’s the reality, that doesn’t mean I have to like it. And I don’t want to “just wave off the impact of OWL”, I just think the casual audience should have as much say as the competitive audience, since the game is (in theory) supposed to appeal to both.
You can’t be serious. “No reason to be against this”? It doesn’t allow everyone to play who they want, because not everyone wants to play 2-2-2. You are right as far as it being easier to balance, but everything else is blatantly wrong.
THIS! YES! If you make it a separate mode you can do whatever the damn hell you want, my main issue is forcing one way of thinking on the entire playerbase in the main modes.
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I have my own thread here about this idea if you want to chime in:
Even the coinflip what decides what team choose the composition numbers is only active for that round, so in the second run the team who didnt get to choose their composition can now dictate the numbers.
Overall my goal is anything but not the flat 2-2-2, because i believe it would do more wrong than good for us.
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People gaming the flex role system is exactly my worry as well.
I am just spit balling, but perhaps it could work if people could specify what kind of flex player they are by choosing one of the four from below (with separate SR for each!)
tank / support / dps
tank / support
tank / dps
support / dps
While I think that the no flex option is superior in terms of ensuring a better matchmaking experience (fair and balanced teams), I feel like this option doesn’t “punish” flex players, while still providing us with better matchmaking experience.
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and not everyone wants 4 bad DPS. Stop being selfish this game has been going downhill since launch and this is the best way to fix it. jfc
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You know that’s actually not a bad idea… I’d probably be a tank/support flex, since I rarely play dps and even when I do it’s only for a round or two of quickplay. It prevents (I think) the problem of fake flexers who just want to bypass queues to get to dps faster. (Well I guess technically 3 of those 4 categories could still do that, but maybe it’s time we give the players a little trust?)
Yeah I don’t really have any objections, I think this could work!
Yeah, I don’t either. So maybe I don’t tell you what to play and you don’t tell me what to play? Hence the whole vote system I’m proposing…
I will never understand how people like you think it’s selfish of me to want people to play the characters they want (while i’ll be tanking or healing for 90% of games by choice anyway), but forcing people to play by your rules isn’t selfish at all somehow.
I can’t help but notice you said 4 bad dps. If they’re good, and it’s working, why shouldn’t they have the option to run 4 dps (provided the other 2 are ok with it)? Having 2-2-2 doesn’t help you if the 2 dps are bad, but not having 2-2-2 allows you to make adjustments in case they are.
Just here to point out the obvious my friend. Vote’s have been abused online since ‘online’ was a thing. :]
Eh, can’t argue with that. As much as I hate hashing out the same old argument with you over and over again, I respect that you stand by your convictions.
Its exhausting, I’m sure you feel the same, and I apologize. It is simply difficult (to say the least) for me to move off of a solution, when its right before us.
Yes, there are costs, there are always costs, but I believe fundamentally that the game’s players are not emotionally or mentally equipped to realize the potential of the game, and that upsets me.
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Btw, how would a vote even work for an even number of players?
Although I guess they could default it to 2-2-2 (or 2Flex-2-2) and if the vote deadlocks in a tie, then it stays as the default.
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Fully understandable, and I wish it wasn’t coming to this. I have to believe there are solutions that don’t limit the ways we can play though. Maybe I’m wrong, but if I stop believing that there’s another way, then I’m worried I’ll just stop liking the game entirely.
Crap… I knew there had to be a glaring oversight somewhere in my proposal
AND HE COMES THROUGH WITH A SOLUTION! MVP right here folks!
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Heh, so already thought about it. And realized you could just simplify it to locked Roles as the default, then vote to unlock Roles.
And instead of an interface, you could just do something like holding down the F button for 3sec as a Yes vote, to unlock roles. Then have a message about it, in text chat.
Wasn’t able to figure if 3 or 4 votes was the best number for unlock though.
Works fine for me!
Yeah I hit that snag too. Don’t want to make it too easy to outvote a solo-tank for instance, but don’t want to make it too hard if most of the team is in agreement either. Not sure who to prioritize. Part of that depends on whether we’re voting on specific team comps or 2-2-2 vs unrestricted. For instance, I think it’d be stupid to require a unanimous decision to change it specifically from 2-2-2 to 1-3-2, some sort of majority vote should be more than sufficient in that case.
Ended up figuring:
- 3 votes if locked roles are mandatory.
- 4 votes of locked roles are optional.
For instance:
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Oh damn… I’d like to double down on my MVP comment from earlier, this was supposed to be my TED Talk, but you came prepared with visuals!
This looks great, and I love it! It allows every conceivable style of play, without really restricting anyone’s choices. You even found a solution around longer queue times, AND incentivized using LFG! Well done!
And the best part is that this system works equally well for comp as it does for quickplay. No need to devise separate systems for each mode.
I guess if I had to make a slight criticism, it would be that you can’t actually run triple dps comps in the role select modes, but this is kind of a non-issue with the custom comp option.
to be fair, players would always get the hero class they want in 2-2-2 (might require more queue time for some) but not always the team comp they want. That’s really no different than what we have now with the current team comp "no you switch!’ chicken set up.
We would lose cheesy stall options and getting annoyed at your DPS under performing and a player going +1 more DPS.
I’d argue that both are not really good for the game.
players who like to play say support on KOTH but DPS on 2CP would no longer have that option. That would suck, but maybe a player should show they can play that class role on every map to get to a given SR.
We also would lose being able to cross flex. Where a support goes tank, tank go support but again with a role lock those “I… I can’t play the support we need” would fall in SR and the problem takes care of itself.
Also tougher to one trick if the team can’t do huge team comp switches to cover for that player.
Yeah we lose some stuff with 2-2-2 locked, but most of it isn’t anything that is a real positive to the game. The few that are, losing them is a small price to play for all the crud locked 2-2-2 removes.