5v5 vs 6v6 is actually redundant

Y’all actually have the same arguments.
5v5:
This abandoned game with a low player count had long queue times.
Double shield.
Shoot shield = boring.

6v6:
Live forever or explode instantly.
Every game is play perfect or explode (When not rolling the enemy team).
It’s just not fun.
Counter swapping not only tank but support and DPS is very very miserable.

Now. Lemme just say.
Why don’t we admit 5v5 could work. But Blizzard has a track record… So.
6v6 might be easier than reworks that either make them way more OP and annoying or don’t do really anything.
Now, double shield. Maybe remove shield from sigma, nerf shield health globally, and maybe that would quickly solve a problem.
No passive abilities, lower support heal overall with lower health pools, lower damage output. So you still don’t explode when fighting people but now lower health+lower heal output+lower overall dps (Now that OW2 makes every support a DPS main).
You’d feel more impactful healing.
No support passive for anyone. Because supports clearly are more than fine prior to depending on DPS to literally make sure you can secure a kill.
Also tanks don’t need to be op. Can experience a casual but sweaty game and not feel worn out.

At the end of the day we all like playing a certain type of way. But realistically we can try 2 role max open queue style with preferred roles, or 6v6 with both having global nerfs to just make it simple with a baseline and removing 90 factors.

Can we agree a new player needs to know vastly more info on playing tank in OW2 than if they picked up OW1?
Well the player count isn’t getting any bigger, lets be real. If you have fun in the time-bomb that is tanking or the over complicated mess that really just results in 90 additions to return to the same problems we keep having. Then yeah 5v5 is the correct answer.

We can stop making hero’s so dumbed down and over powered nightmares that anyone above the skill floor abuses until their eyes pop out, and just make it more casual without making everything insanely strong and annoying.
Play open queue, try 2 tanks. It’s actually annoying how much more fun it was.
I still have games where it’s challenging but not feeling like it’s either impossible to play or too easy that someone else felt like me.

There’s just not an in-between option anymore. It’s just polar opposites in most cases.

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Because 6v6 worked for six years.
On the other hand, 5v5 has failed for one year and a half.

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Lol this is quite the blinkered outlook.

Is 5v5 has just as many flaws and positives as 6v6 did.

It’s just a case of personal preference. Neither worked or failed. They just existed.

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The one I like is actually much better for the health and future of the game

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Because it doesn’t after not even being close after 2 years.

All they had to do to solve the shield problem was nerfing shields. It was that simple. Ofc that wouldn’t have solved balancing but would have still been 100 times better than now.

Id say 6v6 worked for like a year or two, then we figured out how to break it. Which more or less opened pandoras box, because like once we realized that you could get around most of the games intend design by layering tank tools in certain ways. The game kind of became just about that.

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Pretty much. Games eventually reach a “Solved” status.

That said, I still think “Open Queue with Role Limits” could totally work.

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Not exactly, because you had to also resolve the issues with dive, bunker, goats, double barrier, and a ever growing list of potentially borked interactions. All at the same time, till the end of time.

And ever sorta became balanced when they stopped adding heroes.

Yerp but is was also clear the devs weren’t prepared to deal with this specific outcome. As their were no mechanics really in place to break apart the meta once formed. As the solution in place of counter picking and stacking multiples of said heros, just didn’t work against duo’s like dive that covered each others intended weaknesses.

Doubly so in a community that very much would rather stick to a small handfull of heroes then commit to the whole TF2/pokemon bit on mass. And new heroes also just adding google plex numbers of complexity to mix.

Well, they could just have done something similar to the current Mei/Brig reworks, and the Tank knockback passive, and that by itself would be done a lot.

But they’d probably still a Role Limits, at least for Tournament play.

How is any of that worse than the match being decided by a single tank player selecting the “proper” tank?

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So the fun part was, that CC tools like this were one the few ways you cold just interrupt theses combo’s. A mei freeze / wall trap even tho not common did give you ways to just win a fight by forcing apart the duo’s.

Same can be said about environmental kills or one shots. They kind of forced variety and gave less competent comps openings to play through.

Not a good solution, but was necessary for OW to be more then just the meta flavor of the month in a tank stacking environment.

But at the same time felt cheap, and were not fun to play around. Making them a necessary evil to an extent that today doesn’t need to exist.

It’s not, Heroes have tools and means to play around what people perceive as counters.

A rien that knows how to play around cover and flanks, can save his barrier for the melee range fight it’s self. Were he can then use it to waitout tools like fortify, or eat key cooldowns like stuns, knock back, and ults.

Then just counter with a charge, damage, or shatter.

What people are chasing at the moment in a lot of cases are heroes with slightly better winrates then the rest, then the counter being the hero that has slightly better interactions via their more basic playstyle.

Follow a tank 1 trick if you want to see like how a rien can play around orisa, or a d.va with zarya.

Genius remark. And this is exactly why they should reconsider the format change, because this is killing your playerbase. It’s already very noticeable. Sure, you could make all tanks easier to play and gigabuff them, but what next? people from other, more popular roles will scream for nerfs or stop playing the game.

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Statements to the effect of “5v5/6v6 are fundamentally flawed and MUST be changed” are patent nonsense of course. Both can work if not for Blizzard incompetence. 5v5 is currently (mostly) working post season nine. I would be more sympathetic to 6v6 absent the season nine changes. The game is genuinely good right now. Let Blizzard keep cooking on 5v5 I say

Because as I’ve said before, 5v5 just doesn’t feel fun with 3 roles.

In 6v6, even in open queue you had more choices for your team. If you wanted to play 3-0-3 and go GOATs, you could. If you wanted to run Lucio and 5 Damage heroes you could. If your team felt they were fine on healing but weren’t securing picks, you could go 2-3-1. And if you wanted that good balance of having enough healing, damage, and tankiness, there was always 2-2-2. You could make your team imbalanced in some way (sacrificing durability for damage or healing, sacrificing damage for durability or healing, or sacrificing healing for durability and damage,) but you didn’t have to.

In 5v5, you have to. With 3 roles and 5 players, there’s no way to make that balanced team. Assuming you want at least one of each role on your team, you wind up with someone doing their role solo. You could get a single Tank trying to make space and peel and harass the enemy backline etc., but by themselves. You might have a single Damage hero trying to secure every pick, particularly now with the DPS anti-passive, meaning if your DPS gets picked all your enemies get effectively +20% healing (and they all get it if your DPS was trying to get someone else at the time anyways.) Or there’s the possibility of having one Support that’s trying to keep up 4 other people with the DPS anti-passive being sprayed around all over the place.

But you’ll notice that there is no balanced option. No matter which one your teams chooses, they must choose to be lacking in some department. This just feels bad to me as a player, feeling like I have to pick what handicap I want instead of feeling like I’m able to choose a balanced option.

5v5 also has the issue in Role Queue of having outsized importance on the Tank, since there’s only one of them now. In 6v6 RQ if a Tank goes down, there’s still the threat of that other Tank. But in 5v5 if the Tank goes down, the rest of the team follows shortly most of the time, since the entire Tank threat has been removed. Also since that one role has so much importance, it means when the Matchmaker decides to give one team a higher placed Tank that that team has an advantage. If you’ve got Team A with Gold Tank/Gold DPS/Gold DPS/Gold Support/Diamond Support and Team B with Diamond Tank/Gold DPS/Gold DPS/Gold Support/Gold Support, then Team B on paper has an advantage: since Tank is supposed to be so impactful to make up for the loss of a second Tank, that means that the Tank being better is going to be able to have a bigger impact on the match.

Also to a lesser extent, even without it being about Tanks specifically there’s a difference in the strength of getting a pick from 6v6 to 5v5. If 6v6 if someone gets picked, you’re in a 5v6. It’s not great, but you’re still somewhat okey: you’ve lost 16% of your team on that one pick, but can fight back. If you’re running 2-2-2, then you have at least one Tank, Damage, and Support left alive, so every role is at least still being performed. But in 5v5? Suddenly you’re at a 4v5. You’ve lost 20% of your team, meaning that the enemy team has more of an advantage in this situation than they would in a 5v6. Since it’s impossible to have at least two of every role in 5v5, this also means that with this pick there’s a chance your team currently has no Tanks, no Damage, or no Supports (if playing Open Queue, but in Role Queue there’s only the chance your team has no Tank.) One pick can completely eliminate a role in 5v5’s RQ, and due to how RQ is set up it’s the most impactful role, meaning it’s likely the enemy team can just clean up the rest of your team.

The more players there are on a team, the less one individual pick matters. As an example, consider a team size of 2v2 versus a team size of 1000v1000. If there’s one pick in the 100v100 match, you’re now at a 999v1000 state, which is hardly noticeable: the enemy has 100.1% of your forces. But if there’s one pick in a 2v2, you’re now in a 1v2 situation, which means the enemy has 200% of your forces. In both cases, it was just a singular pick. But with less people, each pick matters more and more. Each pick in 5v5 is technically more likely to lead to a team wipe than it was in 6v6, making the games feel more snowbally and deathmatchy.

These are all issues I have with 5v5, that aren’t really based around the balance of the game: they’re caused by the format. No amount of balancing will make a pick in 5v5 less snowbally than a pick in 6v6. No number tweaks in 5v5 will allow you to run a balanced comp, since you can’t evenly distribute 3 roles over 5 players. 5v5 makes the game more lopsided in team-composition, matchmaking, and gameplay, with no way to really fix them (though technically if matchmaking would actually wait until it found exact matches for each role to prevent two different SR Tanks from being in the same match it would at least address one issue, it would make queue times go up and since the stated reason for swapping to 5v5 was to make queue times go down it sounds like a non-starter.) So when someone says 5v5 can work but can’t address those issues, it just makes me continue to believe that 5v5 cannot work, on a fundamental level.

5v5 could work, but not with the legacy heroes/maps in place. They need to actually redesign foundationally, rethink the roles altogether, and not lazily slap it together.

Though I’ve enjoyed 5v5 OQ as a place where I can still play tanks, it is effectively a dead game mode - at least in comp - these days.

Blizzard, it is time to replace it with 6v6 OQ, with the original hitboxes restored. Remove the new game modes. Get as close to the game as you needlessly and cynically deleted as possible, and buy back some goodwill from your fans. Otherwise, you eventually deserve to get slapped in the face by SKG.

Finally 5v5 will be unburdened by its legacy and do what it needs to do, and players who prefer each will have a place to go instead of going elsewhere. Overall, the game will have more variety and is less likely to get boring after 2 weeks into a season.

It’s honestly pretty disappointing that with so many problems that could be practically and honestly solved, a lot of the community fixates on demanding something that a) will just bring different set of problems and b) just isn’t gonna happen

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If it worked for six years, why were they constantly trying to fix it?

But 6v6 would still require reworks to make tanks more generalist and independent. Not getting the specific tank partner than enables your hero to the maximum degree feels bad if you play against a tank duo that does. It’s the same problem that tank counterswapping has now; it feels less like you won because of how you played and more what picked.

At least now if you have a good understanding of the game you yourself can make up for the deficiency. With 2 tanks both tanks had to have that knowledge and that’s just not common at most ranks

Just make it so tanks with shields can’t do anything on their own because their shields are paper thin? Sounds fun

Because that’s what Blizzard does. They “fix” things that don’t need fixing and ignore the things that do.

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No it doesn’t it has more flaws and less positives, but, in terms of how the game feels I think this summarizes it:

As wise man once said:

6v6 had low lows and high highs
5v5 still has really low lows, but, it doesn’t have really high highs anymore.

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