And the 6v6 assets have been removed on top of that. Bringing back 6v6 is like recreating a game from scratch, at this point.
What assets? The UI? It doesn’t have to be reverts of kits - leave the kits as they are.
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So yes and no, OW1 you were tide to your Partner tank to actually get things done do to how easy it was for a tank to peel any solo attempts against their team.
while OW2 you can just get into 1~2v1~2 the moment your team gets into melee range.
Your not tide to say the big team battle and the dance to break and poke through defensive utility. And more so just attack the enemy enemies health bars directly.
You have a lot more power not only in individual tank balance, but in the fact that their isn’t a lot that going to interrupt your duel. And if tool like lamp or suzu is used to do so, then your team is going to have an easier time to break such.
Of course if your dps can’t kill anything and supports a just feeding and not actually attempt to defend themselves, ya no that is just how Multiplayer games are at times.
Again, I’m not interested in explaining the finer points of how to play this game at the (formerly) highest level.
I dont care what your opinion is about balance or tank synergies or any of it. I’ve said what held back OW1 tanking in my opinion, I want to try 6v6 in OW2 with OW2 heroes and patch frequency and reduced CC.
There is no discussion here to be had between you and I.
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No, bruh, it is way more complicated than you could ever imagine.
It really isn’t. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not one of those people that says, “It’d be so easy to just add …”
I’ve worked in software development as well as web design - I’m all too aware that even the smallest things can become monumental pains. But the ability already exists in custom modes. The kits in OW2 are already there (I dont want those changed). The UI already works with 6v6 in custom modes. For a long term change then yes, there would be more work that has to be done, but not for a trial run.
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So sad to say but it’s more less the same issue.
As long as like d.va has DM and winston a bubble, while both have mobility.
It’s going to still combo off in the same way.
Like it wasn’t sustain or a individual hero balance issue.
It was that tanks benefited almost exponentially off each other’s defence tools in specific pairs. And they had to be nerfed to balance out how winston places when DM can peel off his counters, and how d.va can safely dive underneath a bubble.
As long as those tools exist the 6v6 tank issues will stick around.
Then don’t respond my dude.
I don’t need a resignation letter now.
But ya have good one.
I just wanted to be clear with you so you could save time from typing the first part of the quoted post. You have a good one too though. 
Haven’t watched it but just want to point out that when it comes to debates if you are good at it you don’t need to be right to crush somebody who just isn’t good at arguing.
Don’t really know Iron but it doesn’t surprise me that Jake did well in a debate and the subject or if I thought he was right or wrong wouldn’t really change my expectation.
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You keep insisting that tank isn’t a balance nightmare because of 5v5 when that’s just blatantly untrue. You keep insisting that the devs don’t see it as a balancing issue when that’s blatantly untrue.
You’re talking about diminishing returns, but diminishing returns doesn’t do anything to change the fact that you will objectively be better at putting all your effort into mastering one or a few skills than you would be trying to learn a bunch of different skills at once.
Diminishing returns doesn’t come into play until after you’ve hit a mastery peak anyway, and if you spend all your time trying to get good at every single thing you will never hit that peak. So I’m really not sure why you’re bringing this up.
You’re just advocating for tank players to be handicapped relative to every other role on purpose, which is silly to me.
I don’t need you to tell me what they think. Thankfully, the devs can tell people what their problems are with the game themselves. Which is exactly how I know that 5v5 is not relieving the dev team of its tank balancing woes like they’d hoped.
Why even bring this up?! Tanking in MMOs work because most MMOs are PVE. Its easier to balance the tank role when the majority of the game revolves fighting predictable ai. PvP is different. So while tanks in MMOs have some of the same problem as tanks in Overwatch, its not even a comparison. The balance solutions will be totally different. Like…why even bring this up, lmao.
This makes ZERO sense. How is it not a balance issue xD As if adjusting how the counterswap mechanics affect other roles isn’t an issue of balance. This is just silly.
See though, here’s the thing: I don’t need some OWL/Pros wtfever telling me which format was better because I’ve been playing since OW1 launch and I can form an opinion on my own.
My opinion: 6v6 was far, far, far, far better.
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This debate wasn’t fair, equal, or good, but I’ll summarize it to this interaction.
Iron: People are telling you tanking is not enjoyable and you’re telling them oh, in pro play you like watching them just switch back and forth in spawn/that’s intriguing. Tanks are telling you that sucks and they don’t like it, and your answer to them is ‘well I do like it’.
Jake: Well what’s the solution then if tanking is so bad?
Iron: 6v6!!!
Jake: 
Jake is a more polished, experienced, and privileged debate participant but to me, his points are washed. He’s pretty much saying 5v5 is just fine because of playerbase % numbers and data (which he admits we don’t have access to). He comes off as having little-to-no sympathy for the tanking experience (because he doesn’t play tank, and said he doesn’t like to/doesn’t find it appealing at all).
Iron is saying of course we don’t have tank players, tanking completely sucks (while giving the standard reasons), and we should try 6v6 while the game has more players and is actually getting updates. Also, it’s on the devs to actually adjust and balance things correctly (so people don’t abuse double shield or Winston D.Va, etc).
As a tank player who gets fed up after 3 tank games in a row, I fully agree with Iron. You’ll get more tank players if you give reasons for more people to play tank. Also, the least popular role in a game should get benefits and/or the most popular one should have drawbacks (like longer queue times).
IRL you need to wait in line if you want something more popular, and we don’t punish people for liking less popular things, because that’s insane. OW2 devs disagree.
Also, why is it I can go a dive tank and I'll get Ashe/MCCAss/Hanzo/Widow? Or I'll go Hog and never see a brawl DPS on my team? Why do tanks have to swap/adjust while DPS can play whatever the hell they want?
If we keep 5v5, let’s do an experimental card where when you pick a tank it locks out certain DPS heroes that pair poorly with said tank (when you swap, they also have to once they’re out of combat). Supports I’m a little more lenient on, but playing tank into Ana/Zen+any other counters is pure pain.
Reduced CC in what way? Even if you remove every form of non tank CC aren’t you still getting more CC from a second tank.
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1 tank that “doesn’t synergize” with who? That doesn’t make sense
Also 5v5 means players have a bigger impact on the game. In other words, OW2 makes it so you’re less reliant on your teammates not messing up. There will always be bad teammates, but the issue is significantly alleviated in 5v5
Reduced CC compared to OW1. I’ll take it with the current CC level in OW2.
Your team. Supports. DPS. Those synergies still exist and are fundamental to a tank’s success, especially with the dps passive now.
Sometimes. OW2 makes a weak link that much harder to carry as well.
No it isn’t and it’s even less mitigated now that dps have the heal debuff passive. The stomp or be stomped nature of OW2 and 5v5 has only highlighted this more.
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This makes no sense. First you say that every player has bigger impact. But then you say that the problem of bad teammate is significantly alleviated in 5v5.
But is it not enhanced by that logic. Because every player has more impact so if you have one bad player it has far more impact on the game now.
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See, what people like Willcow overlook when they say that is that with a proper level of coordinated comms and teamplay, 5v5 makes it easier to gain value.
In the average random queue, however, strengths and particularly weakenesses are even more exaggerated. What 5v5 did not fix, not even remotely, was mitigation of weak links.
Jake seems to have a much better understanding of how the game works across all ranks. I think Iron exists in an echo chamber and has no idea how the game works for 99.9% of players. He actually said he wasn’t sure if tank was less popular than dps in open queue 6v6. He really speaks about role queue as if the debate only began when brig released when in reality players were debating role queue way before that. The meme in those days was that one team instalock 5 dps and you had to beg someone to flex tank/support lol. There’s a reason the throwverwatch video was so popular lol.
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This comes back to what I said about winning debates. If your opponent isn’t good at arguing you can crush them and it doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong. It all comes down to presentation of argument and if your opponent just isn’t good at it they will lose even if they’re right.
Jake is smart, good at talking and good at debating. He was almost guaranteed to win 
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