I think these 2 things should be addressed instead, and it would solve a lot more problems overall.
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5v5 is totally a problem and with more issues than we had with 6v6
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Not opening that YT link.
5v5 is absolutely a massive problem, among many other issues still plaguing this game. Morons came up with it.
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Psst, its kinda bait, I’m on your side, I’m just more of an extremeist than you are. Trust, its 5v5 hate
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I’ve already posted this in other threads on the format debate but i think it’s really important that ow players take this into consideration.
5v5 is better, but not for them removing a tank. If I could redo it, I’d make it 2 tanks, 2 dmg, 1 support.
All roles would need to be more rounded and self sufficient, all would need out of combat healing (like they do now), so Flanker DPS wouldn’t feed, and supports would need to be 300 HP minimum, as well as severe balancing/kit changes to fit around there being only one support.
Aka, make it more similar to Paladins. I HATE Hi-Rez, but I have to say, the balancing and meta team comps are significantly better in Paladins. 1 main tank, 1 off tank, 1 damage, 1 flank, and 1 Support is the bog standard team comp in Paladins, and it works extremely well.
Blizzard would have to actually balance the game, and make it locked heroes so you can’t just swap mid-game.
Rather than balancing characters like Genji/Winston, reaper/Winston, cass-soldier/pharah, etc. They’ve convinced players “oh just swap to something else, so we don’t need to balance the game so much” but hey, to each their own I guess.
(Ok ill spoil it, its open q love, not 6v6 hate)
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I agree with this. Paladins ‘feels’ worse to actually play, but the meta compas and character design is much better than OW, IMO.
Their standard meta is 2 tanks, 2 dps, 1 supports, and they actually design tanks that people want to play. That kind of character design philosophy with OW’s engine/physics would do very well
You can run two supports in paladins but the extra healing isn’t necessary because in late game the reduced healing passive ramps up to such a high amount that it renders the extra healing almost useless with a 2nd support, it’s just better to run two tanks so you can control the off lane.
You counted 6 players but Paladins is 5v5
My mistake, I meant to write 1 support, I just edited my post to correct
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I watched the video, and a lot of it is in bad taste.
dude is very much over exaggerating the effects of maintaining 15% ult charge after a swap, as if you are given a instant retaliation tool against the enemy team. Specifically to bully the enemy tank some how.
And thinks open que no role restrictions would be fine if the dps had their passive back in the goats era of OW.
Which is critically misunderstanding how goats works at all. As it wasn’t about sustain but the fact that brig could keep dive tanks off the teams ana/zen. As well as stun/knock down aggressive riens or knock back characters like mei/reaper from their ideal ranges. While the tanks cycle around barriers/DM and offensive tools that ignored such as hammer/ fire strike/ zarya beam/ winston tesla. Till they had ult which case the cycled through the best offensive tools in the game with help of discord and nano to get over major defensive tools that would keep such from landing.
Like all OW comps it was about how they can kill things better then other comps, while also covering the major wholes that could otherwise be exploited.
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This entire response is written in bad faith, wtf
First of all, I pointed out a problem with the ult charge retention. Regardless if it was a slight exaggeration, 15% is still worse being in the game at all, and you provided no rebuttal for this because you either know that, or can’t think of a good reason why not.
The retaliation tool IS swapping, not the ult charge. If you swap and keep your ult charge, then win the next fight on a swapped hero, you force them to either play a bad matchup or lose more of their own ult charge. Are you like, not capable of responding to the things I actually said?
Also, I have little doubt you actually played OW back during the end of goats.
Your response is already in bad faith because I was talking about how goats would interact with the game AS IS and here you are mentioning things like brigs stun, which isnt in the game right now (so why even bring it up at all as a refutation of what I said about the game now) but goats was already on the way out near the end of Open Q. Comps that abused long range damage, alongside many nerfs to goats, had already made the comp a lot harder to run at high level, and with said dps passive right now, I think that may be the final brick to break goats back (tbh it was already broken but again, I dont think you played back then.
It doesn’t even matter if goats would be viable today, so long as it wasn’t the only comp, and yes I think that’s quite possible now. There’s a reason goats wasnt around until brig, you could easily have done triple tank triple dps before then. Brig not having a stun now, not having crazy armor in her ult, and her passive healing being reduced by dps passive would be a lot. Hey, I may be wrong, but at least my logic holds up better than yours.
Why even comment if all you are going to do is strawman?
I’m not sold on queue times being as much of a killer as others are predicting. Tank left in a horrible state for years as it bled out players before we got to the point where a tank had to be removed. Blizzard wasn’t treating the game like a live service, and has had a significant philosophy change that I think would be able to get a healthy tank population.
Blizzard has shown that if you make a role more fun, more people will play it. Support went from the least popular to most popular role with a few adjustments targeting their surviveability, changing the dps passive, and a few nerfs to make them feel less like they had a permanent target on their back. Such efforts never took place for the tank role under 6v6, but one of the biggest issues tanks had was addressed during the transition into 5v5 with the removal of CC. The more brawling playstyles and tank reworks have also been largely successful in making those characters more fun, with the current big determent being the counterswapping that gets focused on them.
Blizzard is much more active with balancing, so if a horrendous meta like double shield meta pops up they have been responsive and even occasionally forceful about slapping it down as illustrated by the Mauga meta.
I was a tank main all through OW1, including through the content drought. I miss tanking but I despise solo tanking. I will go back to it if they bring back 6v6.
I don’t have anything to say about the ult charge passive. I don’t see it as an issue. I know some higher elo players complained about it, but I just don’t think about it much.
As for Open Queue though, I will never agree that it should ever return. I’m sorry, but it had too many problems that I don’t think are worth revisiting. Getting crappy team RNG and being the only support in a team of all dps while having fights every single game about who would be on tank duty is just not something I ever want to deal with again.
And that’s not even mentioning how easy it was to grief and troll thanks to things like having your only tank or support throw by tilting and swapping to dps when they know they can’t play the role. It was just…so much chaos. And while you may be right that my rank didn’t increase very much despite the inclusion of role queue, I can tell you that I’ve had a lot more fun playing with it than I did without it.
I get that tank sucks to play in 5v5, but I don’t think Open Queue is the answer. I would sooner see them delete Tank altogether. It’s not like anyone played it in an open-queue environment anyway, or if they didn’t it was rarely by choice.
If you are making an argument against something, your points shouldn’t be exaggerated. by that point alone your already arguing in bad faith. And weakens any valid points of concerns you might have.
If done for comedic affect you should clarify after the fact.
Counter picks as a whole, are not as powerful as one might think. Especially if were talking about tanks. No one hero has complete and total advantages over another.
For example, d.va can put force a bapts lamp fly around a corner and up into the air to stall the lamps up time. then take the quick turn back into the bapt for the kill.
Same for zarya’s bubble, or any ability with limited up time such as bastions turrets or reapers ult. Be it the latter might need your attention with DM if you know your team might get caught in it.
Another way around zarya’s bubble would be to start an engagement with her, watch her self bubble change target to force a second bubble on them. Do the jet trick I just mention, and you basically just won the match up with minimal bubble feeding or damage taken.
Also if your issue is with 15% and the enemy winning the next fight. Then that’s something that only really effects a small hand full of heroes. Like tracer would have pulse bomb regardless, while zen, lucio, zarya, and more will still need another fight or so to get their ult’s up even with the boost.
So this isn’t really a universal scenario that works with every hero.
That was more or less what I was refering to, as in with the dps passive and current balance.
Goats would actually would be a lot stronger now then it ever was before, taking the hero balance as is (which is unrealistic as tanks would nerf into the ground do to tank synergies with other tanks, and specific few supports like they were in OW1)
Simply do to the fact their defensive and offensive tools are rather jacked as is. And barrelly kept in line in open que simply by the fact you can’t have three tanks AND three supports on the same team, with the additional benefit of the dps passive keeping them in line.
Be it giving them access to the additional support slot, means they can just roll a winston and zen to quickly manage any dps interaction. It’s how goats managed dps stacks or 2-2-2 sniper comps back in the day.
While also still having their ana and brig, if not swapping out brig for kiriko / LW who are both rather dive resilient and decent peeling around such. Not to mention the counter ult capabilities of suzu / or Pull to break apart enemy shatter/grav combo’s or pulse bomb solo plays.
By it’s self the dps passive isn’t that strong, especially if can by pass the 15% with another 50~100 hps being in play.
It really wasn’t, it was the top comp in OWL till it was force into 2-2-2. Their were loads of nerfs to it, be it major armor and defensive tool nerfs on the tanks end. As well as mei/doom/cassidy/ soldier getting ubber buffed.
But neither really broke goats, as much as just made none goat comps miserable to play. Do to the Uber DPS heroes and solo or duo tanks feeling really weak to play with all the nerfs to them.
You’re wasting your time with AngryPuckmen, trust me 
5v5 has problems.
6v6 had problems.
I bet if you set up a poll on twitter, using someone with much larger engagement scope you’d end up with a close poll but 5v5 edging it.
(And to the small debate above, ult charge retention is stupid game design and needs to go asap)
Open queue + role limits + 6v6
Queue times solved
Tanks can play the game again
No more respawn simulator
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I actually think Open Queue might genuinely be the way to go - whether it’s 5v5 or 6v6.
There is a fundamental issue with 5v5 Role Lock - especially within the Tank role - and they are going to have to properly address it eventually, as it’s going to become a bigger and bigger problem as time goes on and it’ll effect the game more and more.
And of course with 6v6 Role Lock - queue times are by far the biggest issue. Open Queue fixes that instantly.
There is of course issues with Open Queue, just as there is with any format. But I’m sure there are things you can do to mitigate some of that, like you said…either some sort of Role Limits or a Preferred Queue or something.
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I strongly agree. I am not a 6v6er but if devs came out tomorrow and said they where going to start balancing around open queue as the main mode. Immediately so many of the problems would be fixed. Also like you said the very recent patch helps fixes the problem of too many tanks/supports(Goats) being a problem. There would be a lot of balancing required but just them coming out and saying that is the main game mode now would help. As it becomes balanced they could remove role queue all together. I miss the good old days as flex support in a team you flexed out into dps at times.
They keep track of play time why is it so hard to matchmake based on play time of a role. 1 Tank player that almost always plays tank 1 support player that almost always plays support and 3 dps players that play dps that may or may not swap as needed but atleast you have 1 main of each.