+3 -3 MMR under the hood discussion

Competitive Discussion
21

wrong, if you have an MMR of +3, your SR is 4400 (approx.)

22

So are we concluding that SR is just a pretty representation of MMR?

23

Either way, even if they don’t use SR. My theory is still correct or viable.

Broken down what I’m saying is. A player that the system wants to push up needs to play against equal MMR or SR either way, players.

If you’re the higher rated MMR players the game still has to match you with players that have the same MMR. If it can’t, it essentially has no choice but to handicap the higher rated players team with a lower rated player to compensate.

So a player that’s pretty damn good but not great. May be getting unlucky with the matchmaker not being able to find an equal player this causes that player to have to play much harder and better than the average for that rank to win.

So in theory, a good player can be pushed down simply by being good, but not good enough to carry lower skilled players.

24

Yes.

20 characters…

25

Not quite. The MMR of each team is going to be as near to identical as possible (down to -/+ 0.01 MMR unless under certain conditions). The “handicap” is natural balancing; it’s difficult to find 12 people with an identical MMR value, so it takes 6, averages them out, then finds 6 more that have the same average. This is a gross over-simplification, but it generally holds true.

Furthermore, there’s a queue range. I don’t know the exact values in MMR, but in SR it starts at -/+ 100 SR (so if you’re 2500 it’ll look for people within 2400 to 2600), then as time progresses it expands the search parameters - however the teams will still have nearly identical average MMRs.

Also, not quite. If you lose an “MMR unbalanced” match then your MMR isn’t going to be as negatively impacted as if you win a favored match. The system is far more complex than you seem to understand it as.

Also, no. Below 3000 SR there’s PBSR (which technically impacts MMR, and only impacts SR indirectly). This means a good player will have an inherent advantage in SR gain/loss until they equilibrate.

26

Okay, forgetting about SR (which doesn’t matter).

If a player is in the middle somewhere, in a low population area, sometimes he will be matched with higher players, and sometimes he will be matched with lower players. He will be either the “carry” or the “potato” or “average” for any particular match. It will average out though, so there won’t be any bias against any particular player.

The only exception will be the extreme ends of the scale. That doesn’t apply to most of us. Low bronze players will usually be the potato. GM players will usually be the carry.

The system doesn’t want to push you anywhere. It wants to put you in matches that it believes to be fair. If you do better than it expects (win), it will raise your MMR so that you get higher MMR matches in the future. if you do worse than it expects (lose), it will lower your MMR so that you get lower MMR matches in the future.

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27

I’ve seen that. Personally I just don’t think the system works. It does it’s best to create balance and compensate for those skill gaps in games. But is that really the best solution?

For instance I have an account that can’t break 2k. Literally can’t win more than 1 game in a row. No matter how hard I try how well I play, the account in question is hard stuck, won’t drop won’t climb it can do nothing!

I have two other accounts. One was at around 2.6, can’t lose! Win most every game last I checked in on it I had a 70% something win rate.

Another account that plays with friends. Regularly play against big time streamers the occasional top 500. But again, pretty balanced, win some lose some, don’t need to be carried or anything. I do just as well as anyone else on the games.

But there is that anomaly 2k account that started this whole quest to figure out how In the hell I have one account that can’t win a game.

I get the system isn’t completely off. But I do absolutely think something with how it all works can and does cause weird issues with very specific accounts.

I’m just curious as to how it happens and what exactly is happening behind the scenes because it’s just strange. It has to have something to do with MMR I’m some way somehow creating matches where I have to pull 100 elims to even hope for a win.

But yeah, the account is question had me extremely confused. But yeah, I can lose games all night on it and barely drop SR. But at the same time, it’s nearly impossible to win consistently. So something is definitely off with this one lol so I see what you mean on the corrections to gains/losses. I just don’t feel they are really doing enough especially on the rare account that seems to be absolutely broken beyond repair.

Like I’m not complaining cause it’s my low account that I barely play on. But it definitely leads me to look at the system and be all like hmmm, that is weird.

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28

How many games did you play on these accounts in the last month or two?

What is the rank on this account? How many games do you play on it in the last month or two?

29

I play a lot dude. I have seriously like 5 or 6 PC account. The higher rated accounts I play more than anything. Few 100 games a season easy. The low ranked one I’ll just jump on during weekends and what not for a few hours here and there.

So I know that has a little to do with it. Just not as many games. It just seems like a lost cause when I jump on it though. I main tank so it can be really rough to play with lower ranked players that don’t really get how to play with the tanks rather than play TDM all match.

30

If you want me to continue, you’ll have to answer the questions I asked.

31

I literally don’t know off hand man. I have too many. The only ones I can remember for sure is the low account and the one I played on last night that’s 2.6. and games unless I’m at my PC I can only estimate but it’s for sure a few 100 for the main accounts I play

Few 100 combined so probably 100 games on each in the last two months give or take.

The 2k account is low playtime. Maybe 40? If that honestly.

32

It can take about 150 games (in a particular role/account) to get your MMR / SR accurate. https://www.reddit.com/r/OverwatchUniversity/comments/aatezy/why_match_quality_is_frequently_poor/

This can also be an issue. Your play style has to change depending on rank, especially for tanks. I’d give you advice, but I don’t know how to tank in low ranks either. I’d guess you play like a fat dps (use cover, don’t rely on healing or other support, work on picks), but that is just a guess.

33

Damn, 150 seems kinda high. But I guess that makes sense. And yeah dude, tanking In low rank games is not easy!

Next time I jusm on that account I’m gonna try zarya. I have a feeling it’ll be much much much easier than trying to main tank at that level. 100% charge like all the time lol

34

Think of it this way. If you have a 60% win rate you belong in a higher rank. After 100 games that’s 60 wins and 40 losses. 20x24 = +480 SR.

It takes awhile to climb.

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35

To be fair that’s only exact in Diamond+, PBSR is generally going to speed up the climb if you’re actually performing well.

36

99% of the time if im trying i feel like im always in the +3 bracket -_-

37

All I understand from this thread is that if they remove sr and just show mmr, it’d fix every problem lol

Edit: well haters gonna hate but at least no more smurf, elo hell stuff…

38

I think the reason they created role queue was to try and balance the MMR between matches.

So before, you could have 2 players with similar mmr on opposite teams, but what if one is a healer and the other a dps? Its still not really balanced that way.

So now, they split queues and try to match mmr per role, but they also removed the option to see who is grouped (in anticipation of higher wait times) so they are now putting groups against solo queuers.

Its even more unbalanced now because even if MMR is identical to each role in a game and you statistically have a true 50% chance to win, its not taking into account that there is a highly coordinated group who is communicating and changing counters as needed VS a team of solo queuers, maybe 1 or 2 on the mic, not even in voice chat.

The solo queing team is a huge disadvantage now becasue there is no coordination, no communication, and on top of that you are locked into your role so you are stuck with your small pool of heroes.

The worst ones are the supports. They pretty much can only sit back and take the loss if the dps or tanks arent countering as needed.

39

Well, standard deviation its called, no?

PS In the end what matters is that you win as more as possible lol.

40

My hat off to you dude! You made an assumption (that could be considered fair when not knowing the exact relationship between SR and MMR) and created a thread. A few posters that had some knowledge on the matter contributed with info and corrections.

And you actually listened and took your time to understand for yourself!

Imagine if Cutbeth had done that 2 years ago - would’ve saved so much virtual forum paper :slight_smile:

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