[✅] Should 2CP be less frequent?

[Potatoad-21404]

There are better long term solutions, no doubt. But as a short term solution, I’ll take OP’s suggestion in a flash.

[EFR-11282]

Yes, it should.

[Krotoan-1841]

Ahh yeah that sounds familiar. But does that mean it should turn up less? I’m not against them shortening how long it takes to complete… but … just flat out not coming up as much? Nah.

[anon42420130]

I don’t get the 2CP hate. It’s the 3-round control maps I can’t stand (not the maps themselves, but the multi-round format).

[Heavy-11335]

I only fear what the community’s feelings would be if something like this happened, however. People already have a huge kneejerk reaction to loading into Horizon or Paris, mass leavers that go way beyond any individual opinions regarding the maps themselves. There’s simply no telling me people have reasonable critical opinions about Horizon or Paris; they just leave because other people leave, and they dislike the map because it’s the popular opinion.

I can only imagine how people would react if all of 2CP was deemed “unworthy” to pop up as frequently as other game modes. Just like with Horizon and Paris, it would basically be like Blizzard “admitting” that the game mode is too flawed for regular play. This would encourage people to want to leave these maps at hero selection because by their perspective, it isn’t a “real” game mode, and playing a whole game on those maps would be a waste of time.

And that’s really unfortunate when the problems against 2CP are more about players’ approaches to the game mode rather than anything to do with the maps themselves. People don’t understand the flow of how 2CP works, they don’t understand the routes and strategies. It’s a more complicated and nuanced game mode, but not so much that it’s unpalatable for all of Overwatch. Really, I’d rather people be forced to eventually learn what to do on these maps, rather than the devs cave in and decide we’re all just too stupid to properly get past chokes, maneuver routes, and attack with at least some synchronization.

Mind all this, I do believe 2CP could use improvements, but taking these maps out of rotation or limiting their frequency causes a lot of harm to the community perception. Even as a “short-term solution,” the damage would be lasting as people would go on for years believing 2CP to be this “unworthy” game mode.

[Potatoad-21404]

@Heavy-11335

And that’s really unfortunate when the problems against 2CP are more about players’ approaches to the game mode rather than anything to do with the maps themselves. People don’t understand the flow of how 2CP works, they don’t understand the routes and strategies. It’s a more complicated and nuanced game mode, but not so much that it’s unpalatable for all of Overwatch. Really, I’d rather people be forced to eventually learn what to do on these maps, rather than the devs cave in and decide we’re all just too stupid to properly get past chokes, maneuver routes, and attack with at least some synchronization.

It’s been four years. I think it’s time to admit that people just don’t like the flow of 2CP.

And the devs have apparently tried all sorts of stuff to improve 2CP, and it’s all failed. Which, to me, underscores that 2CP might simply be unsalvagable.

Dev quotes re:2CP

@Jeff Kaplan

we’ve tried a number of things over the years:

• changed the capture points to work like control points (meaning KOTH points)
• added defenders spawn rooms closer to point a
• added a “middle” capture point between a and b
• moved the defenders spawn point back on b
• made it so that capture happens regardless of if defenders were on the point

those are just a few off the top of my head. lots of level design changes.

@Jeff Kaplan

the most immediate priority is a balance patch aimed at the double shield meta. this will show up on the experimental card in the next few weeks.

we don’t have any reworks immediately imminent for any hero, although we are discussing some.

2cp is more of an ongoing exploration for us. we’ve tried many, many things and have yet to be satisfied with any of the results.

paris has gotten some attempts at a rework but we weren’t pleased with our results, so we paused. we haven’t started looking at horizon again yet.

@Jeff Kaplan

our first goal is to make the mode something that everyone enjoys. you can see by today’s experimental card that we try various things to iterate on the game – just some of them don’t work.

for ow2 we have some ideas that will allow for more player agency but nothing is set in stone yet so i don’t want to commit to any promises.

and in the spirit of being open, i think the criticism of 2cp is fueled a bit by the echo chamber of certain communities, when overall the maps and modes are not as universally hated as some would have you believe.

[Scylaceus-1123]

Until they change the methodology of the map design and a release a 2CP map thats more based around assault points on hybrid maps, I think they should consider it a failed gamemode and retire it, there would be more people who would prefer not to play it then play it

Like if 25% of the maps are 2CP then that means in comp Hanamura, Volskaya and Anubis are played more than any other map

[Xaby-21512]

Hard agree! They are the best 2cp maps in the game, though 5th and 4th worst map in the game. I like Horizon Lunar too, it’s the 3rd best 2cp map. Hanamura and Paris makes me gag

[Dysvalence-1915]

@Heavy-11335

There’s simply no telling me people have reasonable critical opinions about Horizon or Paris; they just leave because other people leave, and they dislike the map because it’s the popular opinion.

Nah I’d say people do have reasonable hate for it. Taking a competitive leaver penalty is not something done on a whim, and it happened so often blizz had to remove them from the comp pool.

Fwiw I actually like HLC, and Paris is truly atrocious.

@Heavy-11335

This would encourage people to want to leave these maps at hero selection because by their perspective, it isn’t a “real” game mode, and playing a whole game on those maps would be a waste of time.

People already think this way, and do that.

@Heavy-11335

People don’t understand the flow of how 2CP works, they don’t understand the routes and strategies. It’s a more complicated and nuanced game mode, but not so much that it’s unpalatable for all of Overwatch.

I know the flow from watching waaay too many pro games, and I still hate it. Not only is it unrealistic to expect 6 randos to play it right, that doesn’t change even if they all individually know what to do. And even in a proper stack, the outcomes are so snowbally and binary that it’s straight up less fun than other modes. You can tell because hybrid maps are generally very well tolerated.

[DarkVoid-21853]

KOTH IS SOOOOOO BORING

Yawn

[AngryPuckmen-1981]

I was wondering why Horizon pops up so much.

[Maxy-6374]

For qp, 2 cp isn’t a great mode. A lot of the game is actually going through defending/attacking at least twice on one of them barring a stomp. In qp, two lost team fights is the end of the game

[Kazark-21559]

The very simple way of fixing 2CP would be to make the point cap if you have more people on it.

Winning the fight should mean you get to cap the objective, not that you get to play wack a mole. It wouldn’t be a problem if 2CP maps weren’t a mess.

Then you only have to fix how snowbally the mode is. But i don’t really see a proper way to fix that.

[MooshPaw-1645]

It’s confirmed in overwatch 2 it’ll be 1/5
You take it or you leave it

[Potatoad-21404]

They’ve apparently tried a whole bunch of stuff behind the scenes:

@Jeff Kaplan

we’ve tried a number of things over the years:

• changed the capture points to work like control points (meaning KOTH points)
• added defenders spawn rooms closer to point a
• added a “middle” capture point between a and b
• moved the defenders spawn point back on b
• made it so that capture happens regardless of if defenders were on the point

those are just a few off the top of my head. lots of level design changes.

[…]

2cp is more of an ongoing exploration for us. we’ve tried many, many things and have yet to be satisfied with any of the results.

I wonder if there really is any way to redeem it.

[Baja-11423]

one thing that wasnt mentioned on there is how many of those maps were backfill…

because if you think 2cp is the type that people leave from the most (which i dont think is a stretch) then thats going to impact numbers i would imagine…

though i will say that 2cp makes up about a 1/4th of the maps available so if 1/4th was the end result than that seems pretty normal frankly

[TerrificHare-1265]

@Krotoan-1841

Does it not make sense to have one of the 4 modes come up 1/4th of the time?

A) They account for 3/19th the competitive maps, so they should appear AT MOST 3/19 the time, notably less than 1/4.
B) They are by far the least popular map mode across all tiers, so they should appear even less often than the statistical 3/19.

[Baja-11423]

the person that did the test though did it in QP…since HLC was showing up

im sure the numbers would be different if he did in comp

[HULK-23345]

I can imagine why the game mode would be more frustrating in quickplay With only one round but I Only occasionally play quickplay. Mostly comp. And horizon and Paris aren’t in the rotation there so I never play them. So that may explain why I actually really enjoy 2cp

[TerrificHare-1265]

Actually they used mixed data, so it’s worthless. Hopefully they tagged it so they can filter out competitive. Someone else in the thread did competitive only, and you can see they weight 2CP, although not enough to make it come out 25%. This needs to stop. Sym2getptAamura should not be the most frequent map.