okay but what about this
add in stuns, sleep, etc to that
I’m not against it. Would probably help against EarthShatter, without being everything.
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Bronze view (for those that care about us low elo, the few of you there are):
Rein changes- Bad. 400 hp is bad. 450 is workable, perhaps passive movespeed when moving towards enemy (but not when moving away) to encourage the Rein players down here to remember to think “What is this hammer for?” The way he gets changed here would make him unplayable once people realized the lowering of stats and that they never learned to hammer.
Orisa- it seems good. I like it. I’d prefer the primary fire did more damage rather than did the same amount of damage per shot and over time, but just hit the target faster. Otherwise 
Sigma- I like. Accretion I’m iffy on. I think it should work like Li-Ming Orb in Heroes of the Storm- more damage the farther it goes. Otherwise it’s nice.
Dva- Not as much a fan. I think if you aren’t going to increase her lethality, the armor/health juggling will not work to make her a diver. I’d be up for 200/200/200 (Health, Armor, Shields) so that she is good in short engages and can return to fights even if her healers don’t help her. Not sure what that looks like in higher ranks however. Missile or primary fire changes would be nice. Like a cooldown changes, or a “wind-up to fire faster” change.
Winston- He’s getting nerfed, and no one picks him in this rank. Not sure. Reaper is a must down here because of his lifesteal, this would solidify 0% bronze pick-rate Winston.
Hammond- No idea. Don’t play ball. Still vulnerable to Mei and Sombra tho.
Zarya- Nice. Now it won’t feel bad that the bronze rankers never shoot Zarya (with or without bubble, it’s frustrating).
Roadhog- Probably a bit much. Does push him to be tanky tho. Would create jumpscares of “welcome to the vape zone bruther!”. Would fix Ana matchup. Probably would be used with Reaper down here however to completely break them. We’d be back to our old bronze comp- Rein Hog Reap Mei Lucio Brig. All about running in circles and not dying until the Hog clips someone.
Again, bronze perspective for what its worth. I’d personally be up for giving them shields, upping their damage, changing their movespeed, or something like that. Tanking feels like prison in bronze because you can’t rely on your healers to heal you. That means you get punished for playing aggressively unless you genuinely do not belong. Something that would allow them to peek into/out-of fights or engage more easily would be ideal. I think Charge on Rein should grant him temp hp the longer he charges. So he doesn’t just fail-charge and die.
Why should “overloaded” matter?
I think the idea that we need to balance roles in such a way to avoid 3-4 of the same role on a team, is outdated logic. Considering it’s impossible with 2-2-2.
Furthermore, I’d even argue if we can’t get a fix in for queue times, this entire game is dead and Overwatch 2 is dead.
And the most direct way to fix queue times is to make people want to queue for tanks.
I personally can’t think of a more direct way to make Tanks more popular than making them better at 1v1’s.
And to fix queue times with 2-2-2 or 1-3-2 or 1-2-2, all of those would feature sizable tank buffs.
That said, this design approach listed up top doesn’t increase the actual firepower on these tanks. And it gives some sizable defense weaknesses to AnchorTanks at close range.
But in general, I’m totally okay with “power creeping the entire Tank lineup”, if that’s what it takes to make them more popular.
Because the alternative is this entire game franchise dies.
yes you do, because when some roles are just inherently stronger than others, those other roles will feel terrible to play.
if you make tanks/healers too strong, the DPS players will leave this game. no matter how fun the DPS heroes are, but if they are just worse than the other roles, nobody will put up with that.
(goes in any direction)
thats why its still important to balance the roles even with rolequeue.
I’m totally okay with 1-5% of the playerbase quitting the game, if that means queue times get better before OW2 comes out 
that doesnt even make sense in context to what i said.
also, thats a terribly arrogant thing of you to say.
Does it not? The “feel bad to play” is code for “these people might quit”.
Because otherwise it means “these DPS players might switch to Tank” which is desirable.
So maybe you should say what you mean?
what?
i said what i meant.
if you make some roles inherently stronger than others, it sucks the fun out for the weaker roles. and then people will stop playing the game.
if tanks are too strong and dominate just by being tanks, that means the game feels unengaging and meaningless to the other roles. even when each team is guaranteed the same roles in 222, i wouldnt want to play the weaker roles because i want to feel agency. i want to feel like what im contributing to the team is important. but i would just get carried by my tanks, in that scenario.
Some people might quit, but I’d wager a lot less are so focused on impact, and are more focused on equalizing the fun/popularity of each role.
That said, it’s straight up lying or ignorant if you think people won’t quit if queue times continue to be bad.
Much less the entire push to pull people back to the game with OW2 will be wasted because people won’t stick around if the queue times are bad.
where did i say or even imply that?
i too think that “fixing” queue times is the main issue this game has right now.
but simply kicking out a portion of the playerbase is not it.
The part where you’re trying to act like losing 1-5% of the game is more important than losing a much much larger portion of the current playerbase and potentially gained playerbase from OW2 launch.
If you can’t tolerate compromises, you either aren’t thinking it through, or you aren’t being honest.
In general, one shouldn’t mess with Halt. It has a very important, specific purpose.
The entire reason Halt exists is so Reinhardt can’t just walk up and murder Orisa uncontested. You need to be able to drag him away, at least once, possibly multiple times, so Orisa has enough time for her team to break his barrier and mow him down. That’s the entire nature of their matchup.
Messing with or nerfing halt usually has the side effect of making Reinhardt able to pretty much universally beat Orisa in a 1 on 1.
i just think thats not a compromise but will actually kill this game even faster. tank players are desperately yearning to feel like tanks again, the other roles are yearning for their tanks to actually be self sufficient and tanky again.
i, for example, would so so much love to play tank more.
but i cant bear the current experience, because i feel like a limp noodle when playing tank.
every role has its own power fantasy, as somebody else already explained earlier, and tanks are being denied that power fantasy.
thats why nobody wants to play tank.
as for the hypothesis that “tanking is just generally less appealing” it might be true (although i dont see any statistics on that). but the solution for that is not to simply say “well lets just YEET every tank out of this game” but to make it so the structure of the game represents the amount of tanks/DPS/healers correctly.
personally i think something like 1-3-2 or even 1-2-2 would be a way better step. but neither of us can prove our points definitively, so we can only exchange opinions and viewpoints and observations.
i dont claim my opinions are fact, but i have principles and one of them is compassion. i have compassion for those who want to play legit tanks like they were in the past.
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A few issues right off the back, as you want rien the tank that has to fight in melee range to have lower hp then orisa? I mean sure the speed boost to fire strike would help but not by much especially considering that he has to drop his shield to do that.
armor buffs in general only really help the tanks against hereos like reaper, soldier, and sombra. that do spread damage.
Sigma having effectively an infinite shield that he can place where ever, while also being more of a dps would be pretty much a just cement double shield period.
Which is especially try when it comes to orisa, as giving the auto refresh shield a lower cooldown also enforces double shield completely.
the zarya cleanse on earthshatter seems just a bit cheap, and considering that the bubbles already last about as long as sleep does with the nerfs. this basically just hard counters sleep entirely.
the hog ch
i do very much like that roadhog change
If you can think of a way to make Tanks substantially more popular that doesn’t involve buffing them, I’d be genuinely impressed.
Wouldn’t that involve even bigger buffs to the Tank role?
I don’t feel like any big changes are necessary to pull back on the double barrier usage. The changes Blizzard has been making over the last several months do seem to be directed at weakening the strategy indirectly.
Between the likes of nerfing the bunker-type supports, buffing Mercy and Zenyatta, giving D.va and Genji buffs, bringing Mei back in line, reducing Brig’s overall influence.
It’s all obviously intended to bring the dive composition back into relevance for the general playerbase. This is really the only thing that needs to happen to reduce double barrier’s impact on the game.
The primary bits of that strategy, being Sigma and Orisa, are extremely weak to dive conceptually. However, between the supporting tools of the double barrier comp being too strong and the prime components of dive being too easy to stop in average play, we just haven’t reached that conclusion as a community yet.
I think they general direction the balancing has been going in this year has been good, given more time double barrier may just go away naturally once more changes come through.
Perhaps, but the other aspect I’m putting in there is essentially to increase the overall popularity of the Tank role. Across all skill tiers.
If it were just “balancing to fit the status quo”, it would be a lot simpler.
and what would be the problem with that?
its exactly what we need, buffs to the whole “tank” aspect of them.