If it was so unhealthy, then why haven’t they nerfed the key talents that were triggering it? Where were the complaints, why haven’t they toned it down?
It was unhealthy after all.
Regarding meta is ‘irrelevant’, if people find that certain gimmick or build un-healthy, they would have told or pointed it a long time ago.
The talent tier was not a failure, only did they fail to notice High Inquisitor being too much in that tier, Unwavering Faith nor Indulgence were capable of matching High Inquisitor, if they had been buffed.
The nerfs for Unwavering Faith was what also triggered the Clemency + High Inquisitor builds, as people no longer deemed it ‘optimal’.
So should a player with a specific winrate be the answer to all winrates, should they balance on that player’s statistics alone? Because as I can tell, most people who mained their Heroes carry around +55% to +60% winrate.
and I main Whitemane, and it could scream biased because if someone mains a specific Hero, people will already assume for that person to be biased.
I’ll provide some clips in a real-combat situation once I can get a candidate.
I have read every Whitemane thread and comment since the patch so is deffinitely not a blind agree. I mostly agree with what he has wtitten.
I used to be a player with 67.5% win rate with Probius for a long time and that doen’t mean Probius is broken, also I have met players with 70% win rate with some heroes like Gul’dan and ETC. It’s not the hero, it’s the player, just like with MKLeo or Samsora from the SSB community.
W is not just dmg+heals. It’s also a slow and has longer range than her AAs.
But I can see your point and the concerns of the calculations of that reddit user.
Agree. But I think it’s less horrible than ppl think overall and msot of the problems can be fixed with numbertweaks.
Blizz don’t need complains when they have all the data.
Data about:
winrates
pickrates
dmg numbers and averages
anything performance related
This is what ppl usually forget and wonder why hidden things got changed.
And why now? Because they can’t do everything at the same time, there are priorities.
It’s not jsut about your winrate. And not just about mine with yours. What I saw from you as WM was a bit too much imo.
And as I said earlier, Blizz has data about basically everything, and they might change stuff according to those hidden data. Sounds reasonable, since we know they have stuff like that.
You know I help you in that if you want.
Blizz stated in an AMA that they can’t really buff Probius, because he’s already too strong and would end up broken. He’s a problem, who might recieve a rework in the future.
I’m not saying this is right or wrong, but I want to remind everyone that Blizzard already said they are fine with not making the character like it was in their original games. So, saying that the rework destroyed what she was will never be a good argument because they are okay with that as long as the rework is healthy for the game.
Again, not saying this is right or wrong, good or bad; just saying they do that and they are ok with it.
There were good reworks and bad reworks, I will list one of their good reworks that truly gave the reworked Hero everything they once were missing, without truly making the Hero unknown to the those who mained them.
A good rework was Lunara, Artanis, Imperius and Lt. Morales.
Lunara was a perfectly good example that they were true with, it kept her play-style gave her more options for newer play-style and the problematic Level 4-Wisp based talents.
Also, I can’t really say much about Whitemane (only lvl 15 with her), but her rework might be similiar like what they did with Tyrande. Stronger (not sure about that one yet) but a lot of aspects that made the character fun are gone.
The aspects of the previous Whitemane iteration can still be salvaged within the rework, so long as they’re actually listening to what people requests that they want for this rework.
As I’ve read and on reddit, is that putting the baseline spell damage back and re-adding Fanatical Power at 7, as a request.
I finished testing with Karabars as to which we did a few tests, both Whitemane and Kharazim can kill general Assassins at most 3s for Whitemane or 4s, while Kharazim is around 3.6s to 4.7s.
Both are sort of ‘burst-sustain’ damage, though Whitemane suffered from dueling against ‘duelist’ Assassins like Sylvanas and Jaina (a tie with Jaina depending on both players’ skill level.), Kharazim can survive Sylvanas, duel and kill Sylvanas while struggles a bit against Jaina.
Conclusion:
Whitemane’s burst was ‘dependent’ on positioning and timing, but is a very powerful combo, her self healing not so ‘insane’, but enough to keep her half alive against duelist Assassins.
Kharazim’s burst was dependent on mobility, health and talent dependents but can kill duelist Assassins against the right players.
A Healer who has her healing tied strongly to her AAs.
Khara and Anduin can talent into AA based healing, Tyrande, Rehgar and Khara can get extra cdr from AAing.
The 3rd group is people like me with Tass currently.
Play a bunch of games on live so I can be informed aboit all possible builds and talents and inner workings of a hero. That way when the rework inevitably hits, your opinions about it are well informed.
Not saying any one is NOT informed its just a weird thing I do.
I’m an optimist so I like to believe if i have a really well informed opinion (LIKE the OP of this thread) then its more helpful than just getting upset about changes.
Kharazim and WM have very poor utility compared to other healers so what’s wrong with them bringing damage to the table?
I hope so. The whole damage buff at the expense of survivability was what made it an awesomely designed talent. Strong, but not recommended for all situations.
To me, the current level 7 tier is what i consider to be an interesting tier. Currently, you have the choice of:
utility (unstoppable)
more damage at expense of personal survivability
easier personal survivability with a personal zeal
No but in this case it is such a massive waste really, as they got it right the first time. So in a sense it is absolutely disheartening on a personal level.
The problem with the rework that seems to be cropping up the more you play test is that she’s very close to becoming a feast or famine hero… The AA build is pretty evident but the lack of mana refund and the added cost of the first cast along with the nerf to her basic abilities makes it more costly to actually heal as compared to before, meaning outside of the AA build the stacks or lack of mana refund begin to be felt in longer skirmishes (i.e. fights over objectives).
Rather than talents they need to examine the desperation stack mechanic itself or integrate refunds or deal with her mana regeneration. Because she’s far more vulnerable becoming feast or famine with the direction they’re going at and that isn’t exactly an improvement.
The thing is the new direction doesn’t allow Whitemane to actually punish someone out of position / overstaying in the way she did so before. Unlike other healers her tools to punish was primarily her burst damage now with her damage being shifted to a more steady paced AA she’s even less capable of punishing positioning / overstaying and more importantly getting those kill confirms.
The developers talked about hoping to bring Whitemane back into the meta but the thing is they kinda missed the mark as what tended to push her back in favor of other healers is having baseline CC tools (for set up or peels) or strong means of kill confirm, of which she only has via talents in a conditional manner that tend to be more mid-late game with a lengthy cooldown.
I said, that Whitemane’s Q build once were the go to, safe build path to go to, before they considered it ‘less optimal’ after finding out the insane synergy between Clemency and High Inquisitor.
Q-build is of course viable, just no longer the considered go-to optimal build.
See, sometimes I don’t agree with this. By destroying some unique parts of certain characters potential builds, we just basically make “everyone the same”.
Yes, Uther is a bad solo healer but he’s great to use as an off tank/bruiser. Why not? Why does he need to get in the same place as the other healers? Why does WM needs to be an AA healer like many others before her?
Making something unique is also what makes people not get tired of playing games and in this case, certain characters. Yeah, I think Uther could use some tweaks here and there but I don’t mind his position right now.
Even with his mana issues and inability to be a solid solo healer in most cases, he’s still has a very interesting place within the game and I dread the day they change that and become just another regular healer.
Obviously, I understand the point of being healthy to the game and that’s important, no question about it but really, is his stunlock THAT much of an issue in most cases? Annoying? Yes. Dangerous in coordinated teams? Yes. But is it THAT bad? I have my doubts.
Again, I just dislike seeing characters become one-dimensional or lose some of their charm.