No he doesn’t need them for catching zeratul , he needs them to protect him if Zeratul allies collapsed on butcher to protect zeratul and in that case Butcher’s backliners are not exposed because the whole team is focusing him
Zeratul level 128, Butcher level 87 as I wrote in my first post
Butcher is by no means a Zeratul hard counter, lol. You can very easily escape from him with either of your two ultis.
Zeratul only has one answer to charge + lamb and this is VP.
And if zeratul takes VP he is not going to have neither kill pressure neither mobility that people complain about since this build has been nerfed.
Even with motn butcher is not an easy hero to deal with , in fact you can’t unless you have confortable xp and level lead.
At least the guy has honestly put his account value on the table put some substance to your complains.
If zeratul uses one blink xul can catch up to him easily unless he got slowed by spike.
If you forced two blinks congratulations he wasted his ult and has to sulk for 20 seconds while root has a lower cd.
If he stated to commit to you and burned some blink before hand congratulations he is dead.
Xul is a big counter too, i would argue butcher is a bigger one because he can just go fetch zeratul from afar.
Fair enough. I’ve got Butcher in the mid 30s, don’t remember exactly off the top of my head.
Or his 3 unconditional Blinks he can have at level 20, only one of which he really needs to use unless he’s on a wide open map.
Dude.
I main Zul’jin, literally one of the most dive-vulnerable heroes in the game.
Zul’jin has no in-combat sustain till he gets Amani Resilience or Buzzsaw (or for some stupid reason Forest Medicine) at level 20. His only mobility option comes from Eye of Zul’jin at level 13, which only grants movement speed while you are attacking heroes. 50%+ of his damage output depends on him being low on health.
Almost every Mage in the game is better equipped to deal with divers than Zul’jin.
And yet, so long as my team isn’t feeding them, I eat Butchers for lunch way more often than they eat me.
Butcher is one of the most linear and predictable heroes in the entire game. You know exactly where he’s gonna be when he charges at you, and you know exactly what he’s gonna follow that charge up with. Everything about him is extremely telegraphed, and that gives you ample opportunity to prepare for and react to it.
You cannot seriously tell me that Zeratul, literally the most mobile and non-linear hero in the game, who has actual sustain options and a playstyle that lets him deal all of his damage at once and then peace-out before the enemy team can even react, is “hard countered” by a hero almost no one above Plat struggles with.
I am not an amazing Zeratul. I’m decent at best. Yet I can almost literally run circles around Butcher.
Not sure how you guys don’t know these tactics when you seem to practically main him, but here’s the basics.
When he charges you, Blink over a nearby wall. This will give you a lot of space and likely take the Butcher on a detour he doesn’t want to go on. Bonus points if you picked Wormhole or marked a target with Vorpal Blade so you can teleport back across the wall if he’s still about to catch you.
If there is no wall there, you still have 3 options:
A) Blink one or more times just to put distance between you and his team, forcing the Butcher to overextend and making sure his teammates can’t help finish you off if he commits. This works especially well if you teleport towards your own teammates.
B) Try to time your Blink to dodge the stun. This is very tricky, but doable.
C) If you don’t think you can get away or force him to abandon his charge but his team isn’t close enough to help him, you can simply take it like a man and then Blink away. Bonus points if you hit him with a Singularity Spike right before impact so he’s slowed and can’t chase you.
If Butcher is a “hard counter” to Zeratul, it’s in the same way that Genji and Tracer were counters to old Chromie. If you can hard-counter your supposed “hard counters,” they are not hard counters.
Yep, and he’ll get literally 1 autoattack off, tops, before Zeratul is free again, and last I checked, Xul doesn’t have any way to reset his Bone Prison cooldown. There’s no way you’re dealing any meaningful damage to Zeratul as a Xul unless he really screwed up.
Again, the issue here is that the delay gives Zeratul plenty of time to react. And if you give a good Zeratul time to react, he will make very good use of that time.
Seriously, try rooting Tracer with Bone Prison. It won’t work too well unless she’s been carelessly burning her E and Qs.
Zeratul is more mobile than that.
This and that’s why I have a question to MacWeak or N001. If you really think The Butcher can counter Zerathul, a really mobile hero. So does he also counters Tracer or any hero without a disable, because they can’t escape from him? For me it sounds like that and it is ridiculous.
The BigB’s charge least range is greater than 2 blinks you need to burn 3 back to back.
Motn reset ability depending on the ability rotation you input , zeratul at 20 has 2 unconditionnal blinks so if zeratul blinked and then attacked in a TF and then charged he takes the full monty show and then he needs to pray his team saves him.
Your scenario only works if zeratul is charged with all cds up.But for argument sake i say you are not wrong.
If you actually are not bad at xul and picked shakler and mages and pace both you win if he did not blinked twice after the first prison.
But for argument sake let’s say you are right.
Tracer struggles less in theory versus xul because even if you do not use blinks correctly when rooted recall can give you a better distance to flee and it cleanse xuls’ slows which screws xul a lot.
Slowed zeratul after blink is half dead.
Plus you forgot a crucial point in your scenario zeratul has to walk into xul to melee so he is going to get to root range, shackler armor range, W range and skeletal mages range while tracer can dance around xul avoiding W and melee range and needs to only look out for root and skeletal mages.
You really need to be a novice tracer to lose to xul.
Now what you said before raised my eyebrows but really THIS infuriates me.
Are you really going to say with a straight face that forest medicine sucks?
I mean really?
Come on do not insult the zandalari this is too much…
If butcher charges tracer without recall to bail her out from stun into lamb she is 100% dead yes.
If genji did not pick X strike to bail him out he is dead too.
In 1v1 illidan can avoid that with both ult but fleeing with the hunt requires some damn reflexes. With the proper talent picks and meta illidan can 1v1 until a certain meat point.
Malthael can escape with the proper talents.
Valeera escapes with both ults.
Zeratul flees with 3 blinis or if he Vps himself.
Samuro escapes if he has clones and trait up.
The thing with butcher is that very few can stand in a slugfest with him and past a certain point no one can.
And i disagree with maximus on the he is straightforward so not a threat.
Him crushing someone also is pretty binary.
You either have a response to charge lamb or you don’t.
Why do you think butcher is a pub stomper ? Sure he is straight forward but his winning conditions also are straightforward and simple.
Anyway now that people talk about bigB we need heisenberg.
Yeah, “if”. That’s a big IF, because usually The Butcher won’t get Tracer.
You mentioned FanHots as reference to prove that The Butcher is a hardcounter to Zerathul and strong. But interesting about this is that FanHots rated Butcher as D in his tierlist. Really ironic…
Source:
https://tiermaker.com/list/video-games/heroes-of-the-storm-tier-list-4151/281018
D.VA is in category F 
Come on, the whole game is a wait for certain defensives to be used before using your killing abilities or to force cooldowns to get an advantage.
Only one escape/counter guarantees nothing if you can force it before hand.
It was not me but i will answer.
Is this list a QM tier list? At what level of competency is it aimed at?
Any tier list worth its salt stipulates that
1 - player skill is plays a huge factor
2 - draft plays a huge factor
3 - are often aimed at players who like fan are the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD level (i miss HGC).
If you look at “QM tier lists” or “to climb ranks when i am low ranked player tier lists” you often see butcher higher and zeratul lower.
Butcher requires less effort at a basic level to get good reward out from than juggling cds with motn zeratul.
Butcher becomes a D level hero past a certain point because charging in a team
Of competent players who also draft with their head and not just their ego is very hard.
Like diablo becomes a very hard to play hero into high level players to a walk in a park when you face silvers who kiss walls and do not punish you and walk away from you when you charge someone instead of pressuring you and helping their mates.
There are people way better than me here who are at masters level playing butcher nova and tassadar who ignorants would put at Z tier.
Not only are those guys good they also know when their hero has a shot at winning and being drafted ( i think they do …).
In fact, Illidan can against the stacked Butcher if he has the physical armor talent at level 7, and if the Butcher has a lot of meat, it would be fair if Illidan also has a lot of Stacks of your level 1 mission. I have done this many times and it has always been effective for me. Use demonic form to reduce the stun of the Butcher and avoid the chain at the exact moment.
I know that this has nothing to do with the discussion but I only put it as interesting data e.e
Did you actually read the tier list description for each? Anyone reading it knows immediately it focuses on draft scenarios and nothing else.
Any QM arguments are redundant until they actually start sacrificing quantity for quality, and that’s not happening when you get 15 seconds queues for a clown fiesta for a game that balances around balanced comps on both sides and drafting in general.
Yeah, this is why you don’t balance on the lower part because if you risk the games entire balance.
Anymore hot takes with butcher countering zera please let me know.
Oh btw Butcher isn’t a counter for Tracer at all lmao, you guys are just too funny, Tracer has more control over Butcher than he has over her, I can just do one blink and he’s going through my team, I don’t even need to sacrifice recall
But does tracer have an answer to charge + lamb on a 1v1 situation outside of recall? Does she survive charge + lamb without it if butcher is not underleveled and seriously meat deprived?
Because i can also say stay close to either your tank , bruiser or support while zeratul hasn’t blinked in yet to counter him in tf situation…
Heroes of the Storm is a team based game made by Blizzard Entertainment.
This is very true but people complaining here use 1v1 reasonning so i used it too.
This is a very valid point, people balance around 1v1 situations too much in here.
Most of the Tracer rules can be literally applied on Zeratul though even team based situations, his mobility is rather good and I have no idea why even here counter point is like that at all.
Right, so he is not a “hard counter.”
You cannot call a hero who is extremely hit-or-miss a “hard counter.” That’s not what that word means. At the very most, that’s a “soft counter.”
Butcher is neither effective, nor reliable enough to actually counter Zeratul. I’m sorry, but if you struggle against Butcher as a hero as mobile as Zeratul, the problem is you, not the dynamic between Zeratul and Butcher.
I don’t understand how this is so difficult for them to grasp.
They keep insisting Zeratul has to burn multiple Blinks to get away from Ruthless Onslaught, despite me pointing out multiple ways you can play against it by burning only 1.
Go over a wall to outrange RO’s charge. Jump to your team to force him to cancel it or suicide. Simply put distance between you to make him charge further from his team. Try to time your Blink to dodge the stun.
The level of mobility Zeratul has gives him tons of options to counter just about everything but instantaneous hard CC. And if a “hard counter” like Butcher supposedly is can be countered so easily, then it isn’t a hard counter.
This is depressing to look at as I’m comparing Tracer to it.
Why, because Zeratul’s Blinks are more versatile than Tracer’s?