Regarding Artanis' Current State

[Vitriuz-1880]

I get names mixed up mb lol

[ShakeNBakeUK-2446]

I dunno why you think he’s useless, I see him in ranked all the time.
He doesn’t get to have top dps or top CC bcos he has the ability to SWAP AN ENEMY HERO FROM A SCREEN AWAY lol what more do you want?!

[Jamuro-11865]

Useless!

[Vitriuz-1880]

You really think that’s the case? When Artanis is looking for a godswap opportunity, it’s so predictable that you can dodge it in about 80% of all scenarios. If you keep getting swapped, it’s you that’s at fault unless you are hindered by CC.

[Kith-11735]

@Ocek-1343

Let me clarify, since I didn’t get the point across clearly.

I’m not saying he doesn’t attack fast enough. I’m saying that because he relies on a fast attack rate (twinblades included), he lacks the attributes required to utilize a fast attack speed .

Do you understand what I’m saying now? Fast attack speeds require uptime , and only two (three depending on definition) provide uptime.

Range and constant superior mobility. Artanis lacks both constant superior mobility and range.

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t agree. Artanis is one of the most durable heroes in the game (a single activation of Shield Surge gives him as much Health as Cho’gall), has pretty good DPS, has amazing PvE performance (especially vs camps and objectives), and has the potential to generate picks. I feel it’s an intended balancing factor that his mobility options aren’t very robust.

@Ocek-1343

Secondly, you’re ignoring the bottom half.

No, I’m not. That’s what I was specifically responding to with the examples. For clarity’s sake, my point being that an ability with a variety of applications that can contradict one another is not necessarily a bad thing - it’s just an ability with multiple use cases.

@Ocek-1343

Blaze has two charges (go figure) so he actually supports what I’m saying.

Not really, no. Oil Spill and Blade Dash are very different abilities with very different levels of playmaking potential. For example, you can’t generate a pick by combining Oil Spill and Flame Stream, but you certainly can by combining Blade Dash and Phase Prism. For another example, you can’t interrupt a channeled ability with Oil Spill and Flame Stream, but you definitely can with Blade Dash and Phase Prism.

@Ocek-1343

Using those abilities are not contradictory.

They absolutely can be. For example, using Power Slide to dodge or escape means you’re not using it offensively. By extension, using Power Slide offensively means that you can’t use it as an escape or a dodge.

@Ocek-1343

Varian’s Lion Fang works perfectly fine unless he’s at full HP.

Let’s have a thought experiment. Varian has the option of using the slow to aid his escape, the option to use the slow to secure a kill, or the option to hit multiple targets and maximize his damage. What is the most appropriate use of Lion’s Fang in this situation?

@Ocek-1343

Blaze has 2 charges, so good example for me.

Again: no, it’s not. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

@Ocek-1343

Artanis’s Blade Dash does not share those similarities with ETC and Varian.

Not those specific functional similarities, no, but it’s hardly alone in being an ability with multiple use cases that don’t always align with one another.

[Ocek-1343]

@Kith-11735

Twin Blades does exactly that , though. While it’s not a traditional Attack Speed buff, it provides an extra one to two attacks every four seconds (depending on if you abuse the Basic Attack reset or not).

I mean, this clearly shows you didn’t understand what I was talking about. If you did, you wouldn’t have tried to convince me that Twinblades acts as an attack speed buff which is actually contrary to what I suggested is a balancing issue.

@Kith-11735

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t agree. Artanis is one of the most durable heroes in the game (a single activation of Shield Surge gives him as much Health as Cho’gall), has pretty good DPS, has amazing PvE performance (especially vs camps and objectives), and has the potential to generate picks. I feel it’s an intended balancing factor that his mobility options aren’t very robust.

What relevance does this have? I’m talking about the fundamentals of game design, and you’re talking to me about Shield Surge and Cho’gall’s health pool? These are completely off topic and you barely touched on mobility, but for the wrong reason.

I am now more convinced you do not understand what I am talking about.

@Kith-11735

Using those abilities are not contradictory.

They absolutely can be. For example, using Power Slide to dodge or escape means you’re not using it offensively. By extension, using Power Slide offensively means that you can’t use it as an escape or a dodge.

@Kith-11735

Blaze has 2 charges, so good example for me.

Again: no, it’s not. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

So which is it? Is comparing ETC, Blaze and Artanis apples and oranges? Or are they comparable abilities?

According to your own argument they are all comparable, and now you’re going to suddenly tell me Blaze is Apples and Oranges to Artanis?

If you’re going to contradict yourself I don’t need to argue.

[MrNeverDie-11363]

@Maximus-12995

that Alarak is too strong.

Which is kinda true.

[Kith-11735]

@Ocek-1343

I mean, this clearly shows you didn’t understand what I was talking about. If you did, you wouldn’t have tried to convince me that Twinblades acts as an attack speed buff which is actually contrary to what I suggested is a balancing issue.

I’m not going to say that I interpreted your original point properly because I obviously didn’t, but you’ve either skipped, forgotten, or ignored the part where the conversation shifted - which is strange, because that shift happened due to your clarification. You yourself admitted that you didn’t communicate yourself well:

@Ocek-1343

Let me clarify, since I didn’t get the point across clearly.

And of course, this clarification helped me gain new understanding, which I admitted to:

@Kith-11735

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t agree.

And it should be obvious to you that I gained a better understanding, given that I didn’t bring up Attack Speed again after your clarification, but you’re suddenly acting like that part didn’t happen and I’m not sure why.

@Ocek-1343

What relevance does this have? I’m talking about the fundamentals of game design, and you’re talking to me about Shield Surge and Cho’gall’s health pool? These are completely off topic and you barely touched on mobility, but for the wrong reason.

You’re missing information again. I brought up all of that stuff so my viewpoint (which has been enlarged for your convenience) would be in the proper context:

@Kith-11735

I feel it’s an intended balancing factor that his mobility options aren’t very robust.

That said, the “fundamentals of game design” typically dictate that strengths should be balanced with weaknesses. Given that Artanis has an awful lot of Nice Things™, I happen to believe that his “limited” mobility options are those intended weaknesses - especially given how resistant Blizzard was to adding a baseline Zealot Charge to Twin Blades.

@Ocek-1343

I am now more convinced you do not understand what I am talking about.

I understand exactly what you’re talking about: you feel that Artanis should have an easier time of milling the cooldown of Shield Surge and you feel that the way to accomplish that is to give him greater mobility. I just happen to disagree.

@Ocek-1343

So which is it? Is comparing ETC, Blaze and Artanis apples and oranges? Or are they comparable abilities?

According to your own argument they are all comparable, and now you’re going to suddenly tell me Blaze is Apples and Oranges to Artanis?

Whether or not they’re comparable depends on context, something you’ve (again, for the third time) left out. Let’s go back over what I said:

@Kith-11735

An ability having a wide variety of applications is hardly anything new. Take for example E.T.C.'s Power Slide, Blaze’s Oil Spill, Varian’s Lion’s Fang, so on and so forth.

Here, I compare Blade Dash to Oil Spill as an ability that has multiple roles. In this sense they are similar, because they are indeed multi-role abilities.

@Kith-11735

Not really, no. Oil Spill and Blade Dash are very different abilities with very different levels of playmaking potential. For example, you can’t generate a pick by combining Oil Spill and Flame Stream, but you certainly can by combining Blade Dash and Phase Prism. For another example, you can’t interrupt a channeled ability with Oil Spill and Flame Stream, but you definitely can with Blade Dash and Phase Prism.

Here I point out that, despite the fact that they are comparable as multi-role abilities, they serve very different purposes and are therefore not comparable in impact or role. I did this because you asserted the following:

@Ocek-1343

Blaze has two charges (go figure) so he actually supports what I’m saying.

Which, unless I’m reading it wrong, is an assertion that, because an ability has multiple uses, it should have multiple charges as well. This is something that I disagree with, because as I pointed out here:

@Kith-11735

Oil Spill and Blade Dash are very different abilities with very different levels of playmaking potential.

There’s no contradiction because I compared them in different ways. If I was comparing the abilities in question in the same ways, then sure, that’d be a contradiction, but I wasn’t, so it isn’t.

@Ocek-1343

If you’re going to contradict yourself I don’t need to argue.

I would love it if you didn’t argue, actually. You have a habit of disregarding important parts of the conversation, which makes you seem extremely forgetful or intentionally dishonest. Regardless of which it is, I don’t particularly enjoy dealing with either - especially when you condescendingly assume that I don’t understand you simply because I disagree.

On top of all that, you also have a very frustrating habit of avoiding questions or points that would undercut your argument, like this:

@Kith-11735

Let’s have a thought experiment. Varian has the option of using the slow to aid his escape, the option to use the slow to secure a kill, or the option to hit multiple targets and maximize his damage. What is the most appropriate use of Lion’s Fang in this situation?

Or, if I’m reaching back in time to show that your avoidance is a pattern and not just confined to this topic:

@Ocek-1343

Logical fallacy.

@Kith-11735

The neat thing about logical fallacies is that there are a bunch of different types, all of which happen to have specific names and structures. I’m eager to hear which one you think applies.

I could dig up more examples if I put in some effort, but your behavior indicates that you won’t even look at them, so why waste the time?

Anyways.

The moral of the story is that you’re a chore to communicate with and I would not be unhappy if you decided to back out, so you are more than welcome to.

[MatthewB-1112]

At least Suppression Pulse will always secure him a spot in the Medivac cheese comp.