Part of the issue of the stat claims is that the upper levels of play (organized) tend to have much lower stats in game than casual games.
They’re far and away ‘better’, but they’ll look worse compared to anyone player below them outside of that context. Granted, when those players do play in games beneath that level, they tend to lead the stats in a given role (cuz they are better) but the effect just points out how context driven the numbers are; high numbers can be a bigger reflection of opportunity than one of skill and success.
I haven’t played WoW, so that analogy doesn’t make sense to me.
I’m not saying stats are everything and how good someone is strictly comes from the stat sheet. Li Ming can deal high damage with orb build but it doesn’t make her good per se. I know this, and very well understand I’m just trying to say that more often than not if you have better stats, you performed better than someone with stats that are not good. I’m not saying this as concrete fact every time you look at the stat sheet, just as an overall picture.
I don’t mean to get all argumenty and rude, but that’s why I stated this:
I do understand that stats don’t tell the whole story, and you’d have to “be there”, for lack of better words, to fully understand why those numbers are meaningless or why those deaths don’t mean that the player is trash, its just in general.
Its not easy to tell who’s good but you can get a hint based on how the game went, and also the stats. Stats don’t mean everything but they do mean something otherwise its pointless to display them.
You suggest that HotS is much more complicated, compared to other competitive activities, that it would not be fair to rate players based on said complicated criteria, and should thus be kept to simple win/loss?
You know, I was being a bit facetious when I indicated what I previously said to be their intent-- and I full expected a response along the lines of, “but your exaggerating” or maybe “no, no that’s not what they meant,” and I thought we would go from there-- BUT for you to ACTUALLY try and defend such a position…
To quote Sun-Tzu, "Maneuvering with an army is advantageous; with an undisciplined multitude, most dangerous.” Assuming the premade is serious, a coordinated 5-man premade has a distinct advantage against uncoordinated solo-que randoms… Unless ofc the MMR is so far off that coordination doesn’t matter due to individual skill gap, which would be more so a point against your position, than for.
He’s referring to the old Blizzard quote about how premades statistically have the same winrates, but that’s bs because that includes all the casual uncoordinated premades.
Serious premades have massively higher winrates, I’ve even seen duos go all the way to high Grandmaster with 80%+ winrate. Average statistics are bs, 100% win and 100% lose would still average out to 50%, even though they’re obviously unfair games. A team of 5 serious high level players is effectively unbeatable and will have nearly 100% winrate.
And that’s not even including how many premades abuse having Plat or Diamond smurfs on their teams to boost their rank.
I’m sorry, Jackson. But you know as much as me that the matchmaker is broken when it tries to find force-counter a combo by any means (bans/pick-priority). Does the Tyrael/Abathur/TLV-setup rings a bell? Well, I saw exactly what kind of matchmaker this game has and it was disgusting to see how much it prioritizes enemy players who likely pick your very specific combo before you have the chance to by either the bans or the pick-order (back then).
It’s not. Why do I stay with that account around Silver-Gold but have no problems in playing with my Masters-account? I’m too bad to rank up from Silver/Gold? Or am I just lucky to stay in Master? Truth is that the current matchmaker does not account skill, as much as you want to believe it. This is why you tried to introduce the PBMM in the first place.
And one more thing. Friend of mine worked his butt from Gold to Diamond in HL, only to see that after a certain time he got matched with bad players and lost every game after that until he was back in Gold. I think it were ~50 games and more. Every game’s a tilt, right? I checked his stats back then, he was literally the person who did the kills without dying and in the replays he was a team-player with the rest of the team under-performing and dying several times.
so when were said people ever the reciprocal “enemy player” to someone else’s specific combo?
If the system has the flaw you demonstrate, then the occasions of the person in question being that heel would stand out more than the selective times they feel it against them. Otherwise it’s more paddywash ‘friend of a friend’ anecdotes from people that people try to feel empowered out or ignorance by blaming anything else they can.
If this game was 1v1, I would agree with you, but there are many factors to consider that ultimately determine the outcome of a game. On the most basic level, that is the interaction between teammates and enemies. Personal performance in this regard cannot be simplified to win/lose (though team performance could be).
It’s about disabling your win-streak in the end. And how many people do you know who play that one very specific combo in the first place?
But test it for yourself when you can pull it off: Get a weird and working combo together and win at least 7-10 times in a row. Keep an eye on the enemy picks and bans and let me know what your experience was. And yes, it will affect the queue times as well. At one point we didn’t wait 1-3min but 20min.
The thing is in those other sports a win/loss would work just fine if people played enough games. But your idea to rate people on more obscure and arbitrary metrics that completely change based because of the complexity of the game is even more ludicrous.
What the heck are you talking about? This is not a position, there is no meaning, it is not an intent. This is just the data that they collected. Groups do not win more than solo queues. Having been in premades, they come in all sorts of varieties, and the biggest influence on whether they do well are the skill level of those players more so than whether we group together, because surprise, you’re also being matched against other people who have similar skill levels. Being in a group does not magically make you better, and that’s just born out by the data.
It’s a good thing most people aren’t serious. OF COURSE on the higher ends of the spectrum, premades will do better because they utilize those advantages AND they are already good (people seem to forget the second part of this equation). Most players won’t really have to deal with that on a consistent basis. Those that do get to be spanked once in awhile and say wow, that was interesting.
If anything I’d say 50% winrate happens too little. I know it sounds funny but let me explain.
Playing on a GM or a Master account you have to draft very carefully. Part of that is looking at everyone’s winrates, map winrates, and account level. So when we’re looking at profiles we can very easily pick out smurfs, alts, and decayed accounts. And it’s actually easy to calculate where players will peak or what their real player skill is just be looking at win% vs games played recently if there is a large sample size. Like someone that’s 80 games into the season, playing solo, and are rated as Diamond and rocking 80%+ is probably a high master or grand master. And you can kinda estimate where the peak of each player is tbh.
And we can double check our predictions a lot of time. Often we know who these players are on smurfs and decayed accounts because of how small the high level community is. And because sometimes people just pick really similar names to their mains. Or they will just tell you if you ask. Or more often then not someone is streaming. I mean tbh most of the time I’m checking profiles then I’m glancing at twitch to see who I’m fighting or with(not to stream snipe but to actually know who is in the game).
But what I’m getting at. Is if we can tell where a player is suppose to be by their play, and win% over a decent sample size of games. I think there should be something in the match maker that speeds up correctly placing these smurfs and alts just to limit their time as smurfs. Like if there is a solo player that has 100 games into the season and are still sitting at 85% win rate. I think that’s an issue. Cause those people don’t need to be at the rank they’re at and it means smurfs and decayed accounts last longer because the ranks are so grindy.
---------------- extra ramblings
Profiles: For profiles all that information is useful for determining how to carry a match or adjust if you’re not the strongest onto roles that give you the best chance to win. Like I would cede tank to anyone with a 80% tank winrate(with a good sample size) for the season for example. While if someone is trying to first pick a weak duelist on Braxis for top and they have a 30% winrate on the map I’d ask to see if they’d let me take over that role.
Smurf prediction: Obviously when we have big meta shifts this can change things also. Like this season during the first patch of this season players that had skill in push heroes were doing amazing on like Syl for Shrines or Dragon Shire they all had crazy win rate spikes.
80% of all games in one gate - one team dominates the other. This is ‘‘50%’’, not in the literal sense, but in the figurative. The MM is so terrible that it can not be expressed in words. Let naive fanboys believe what they want. The game barely keeps afloat cause of MM ugly and this is a fact. And also s***t report system.
“This skill rating is based on whether or not you win or lose games and nothing else”
This to me is precisely the issue.
I understand your point that other games use this system…but it is impossible to carry in this game. You have 4 other people. 10 people total in the game…that means you have at best a 10% impact if you play God-tier.
With HotS, you share experience, wins, and losses with your team. You need a cohesive 5-man unit to win, which is what makes winning a close, well-fought game so rewarding!
I have mained HotS since I got to try it at Blizzcon, and this is the single issue that has plagued the game and driven me to madness many times.
Where this is the first sign I’ve seen anyone from Bliz even address this issue, I am absolutely BEGGING you to prioritize the ranking algorithm. W/L is such a bad determiner for a 5 man experience-sharing game!
This game would be amazing if it could simply do a better job at arranging how good/bad its players are.
Addition individually the 4 stacks MMR and divide it by 4. You’ll see that it’s 2100.
The 2258 is if it includes my own MMR, too. It didn’t change after 1h has passed.
You’re implying that of of them might be a secret agent with a diamond MMR which the site didn’t caught and that’s why it was a balanced match, but recorded as a flawed one.
I looked at them in game. It’s not an eye opening. My teammates were all low win rate on low lvl account.
So the next question would be, after all that, is what is the explanation behind say someone doing really good they are climbing and maybe go up a full tier or more. Say they go up from Gold 5 to Plat 1.
Then though they fall all the way back to the bottom of Gold.
I have seen this happen at different tiers and ranks even for myself. I will be doing great. Then for no reason at all loss after loss till I get pushed back to where I was.
50% winrate ‘may’ not exist but that doesnt make me still think something else strange isnt happening around the matchmaker.
I’m a one trick Qhira. i have 75% winrate (24W, 8L) in storm league and am currently diamond 5. I tend to hard carry every storm league game. It takes a lot of enemy team coordination to make me lose the game. In fact, 3 of my 8 losses were against the same 5 stack premade that was very coordinated while our team was 2-3 solos with a 2-3 stack.
I think a big part of the problem is that many people don’t play storm league. Their only HoTS experience is quick match, and this completely skews their perception of how the matchmaking works because QM’s matchmaking is completely bonkers. In many ways, QM tends to be more difficult to win than storm league because you’re often playing with players of varying skill levels. The enemy team tends to have 1-2 good players and 2-3 players that are much lower skill level, and it tends to be obvious who is who. This makes QM often a matchup of which team’s good players can carry the hardest and which team’s bad players can be least bad. The other challenge is with the randomness of the team comps. Sometimes your comp in QM is very difficult to win with regardless of how good you are. These factors skew how people view HoTS and it’s truly a shame because it is actually a really fun game. I put very little thought into winning/losing QM from the standpoint of getting frustrated over trolls or bad players, as it’s simply not worth it. I only use QM to improve my own gameplay and that’s all that I focus on while playing it. I’ve had loss streaks in QM then simply hopped into storm league and continued my victory march like the QM games meant nothing, because they actually do mean nothing.
