But thats simply because thats how tf2 is designed, TFC showed that long range gunner types are horrible to face, its simply not fun.
Compared to other classes (ignoring the sniper and abassador spy), the heavy is still the hero which has very reliable long range damage. Much better than the soldier or demo which have travel time in their projectiles. And especialy when kritzed its noticed. At 1500 units away the heavy can still take down a player quickly even though he misses most of his shots. 40 damage per shot (the crit damage) which can hit 3 times per second means a soldier still dies in 2 seconds.
It was even noticed that much that in MvM they gave the heavy a 75% damage reduction to tanks (although left open the damage on chief bosses, where again the heavy is nearly OP again).
The heavy was that op that most classes recieved weapons to hinder the heavy by either forcing knockback, stuns, or allow the medic to be hindered so the medic wont stick to him anymore.
Note that the old big pharma talent was a 20 streak and relatively easy to perform in the hands of a decent heavy. It was reduced to 10 after a while.
At the range where soldier’s travel time becomes an issue Heavy isn’t hitting 3 times a second, he’s hitting once a second. If that. 3 times a second is medium range, where soldier is casually oneshotting half the classes. And that 3 hits a second means he’s missing over 90% of his bullets(10 ammo per second, 4 bullets per ammo).
Plus it’s only 27 damage a crit. 5 seconds to put down a sleeping soldier. To compare, a pistol is 45 damage and is actually capable of accurate fire at that range.
Heavy’s tank damage wasn’t reduced because of his effective range, it was reduced because he can sit there and let the sweet point blank damage ramp up give him the highest dps in the game. Bosses have the advantage of shooting back, a heavy hugging them will die in seconds if not aided.
But that’s a long tangent, the fact of the matter is Heavy Weapons Guy is not a medium to long range gunner and his inclusion as an example is just incorrect. As are many if not all the other examples. Miniguns in video games are nearly universally made grossly inaccurate to balance the more dakka the players want. It’s that or reduce the fire rate(Doom’s approach) which is just less fun.
Tychus is simply following the normal gaming conventions for carried rotary weaponry. Huge damage at short range.
I cry, only for what’s about to happen next.
Now assuming this trait is going to bypass not only armor, but armor esque effects such as parry and evasion, because you stated it also bypass
which isn’t actually an armored effect but actually damage reduction, I’d imagine it also bypasses effects that also reduce damage taken from different types of effects in different ways unless otherwise stated.
But for now I’ll just have to list out every talent thats armor and damage reduction, in alphabetical order
Alarak: Counterstrike
Alexstraza: Tough love and dragon scales
Ana: Smelling salts, armored stance
Anduin: Holy word salvation (although you could already counter that)
Anub: Hardened shield
Artanis: Reactive parry
Arthas: Rime
Arg, I’m gonna stop because, just because, there are so many armor giving talents in the game including traits like chogal or blaze, let’s just say yes, he’d be a neat rule breaker.
Press the advantage, mostly because it allows you to trade easier into ranged assassins with bigger they are and then follow into the overkill grenade combo, generally you don’t even need the full 3 seconds but it obviously ties into the minigun well. Id bump that up to a C+ or B.
Dash takes a long time to have come online, tychus is definitely better than most at early game and having a different talent synergize with that seems better than to pick something for mid to late game for just mobility when everyone else’s cleanses and better healing comes online so you’re just investing into more safety when you could just push early game leads instead.
I’d bump that down to a B or B-.
It’s good, I just don’t think its A worthy.
Master assassin also takes too long to come online. 15 kills against something like murky or dva where it’s far easier to lock down or get multiple kills in a game sure, but otherwise it doesn’t seem B worthy. Maybe B- at most.
I’ll agree with lead rain maybe shouldn’t be at level 16, but when you combine it with spray and pray, instead of being the main damage dealer, you can enable your team to catch up and lock down the enemy team while you blanket them in a locked on field of less movement speed. Also being able to retarget it to almost escaping targets makes the talent incredibly devastating against low mobility comps. Since most of the time you aren’t the only assassin as tychus on a team, just making sure the other assassin can deal damage (which could be a mage, could be another AAer, both situations are ok) I’d bump that up to a C+ at the very least.
Lastly, focusing diodes (which that feels really weird to say) is great, it’s basically drafting a hammer every 100 seconds for 20 seconds, in teamfights you can definitely punish targets that need to dive or can simply ignore physical damage done, (I suppose more like a mage hammer) plus against comps that don’t have DPS to spare, like mages, it means they’d have to toss spells and autos at something else that isn’t murdering them, basically the gazlowe turret spam premise except this turret is a lot harder to reach, especially on objectives like alterac pass and volskya when you have to not only push the enemy team off, you need to push even further into their safe zones in order to stop the drill.
I’d put it at a B. Solid upgrade for an underwhelming heroic, similar to advanced lava strike being absolutely bonkers but on an underwhelming midgame ability.
Actualy against tanks, the heavy cant get the full ramp up of damage because of the distance towards its center (yes, some weird coding going on), unless he attacks it from the side, or if valve fixed this. But kinda irrelevant here as it only matters for about 10% of the damage at most.
The phlog pyro however didnt have this issue (they altered the way fire worked after i stopped playing), but in MvM this has been the most OP weapon against tanks for a long time (even if the heavy would only have a 50% reduction, the phlog would win).
But the thing is, the heavy is 10x more OP against those chiefs because even though they shoot back, the heavy is barely affected as he often is backed up by a shield, and unlike other heroes has a very reliable ranged damage.
This is mostly noticed on larger maps because the heavy is far too reliable at taking out those chiefs. And thats why its an issue. (at least in custom maps - and maybe also valve maps by now - people removed the knockback entirely from rage). And nearly all decent custom maps reduced the bullet damage by 75% against chiefs aswel, just because valve didnt do that.
The shooting of bosses barely does anything unless they get a 5x damage boost. just because of upgrades that people can get.
MvM has been a mess for a very long time, and its only that some people have started to be creative regarding bot choises and stats that they are able to break the heavy against them. (in 1 custom map they simply made the vacinator negate 100% of bullet damage and absorbs it to health)
Also for numbers, medium range is about 700 units away from the player (half the damage fall of). Long range is 1300 (full falloff). the 2fort bridge is 1024.
(and maybe the higher damage is caused because as mvm player, you generaly would take the brass beast. but after 2 years my memory isnt entirely accurate anyway. The only thing i know is how many of the mvm maps are build mapping wise. Because i have spent way too much time on that)
This post got real long and there’s more than these two posts to reply to. I’ll get to the others later.
I won’t argue that the Heavy’s Minigun is more optimal at medium-close range, but it’s not like it’s unable to kill the Soldier and the Medic at the Medium and Far marks. On top of that, TF2 tends to favor short-range combat anyways (as most, if not all, weapons deal more damage the closer you are due to damage falloff over distance) unless you’re the Sniper, so I don’t feel like that’s a very fair comparison.
I’m going to have to disagree. While it’s true that the Vulcan Raven bossfight takes place in an enclosed space and most shots will come from close range, he’s more than capable of accurately firing at Snake over the horizontal length of the room (which is not a short distance).
I will admit that I have not played the more modern Fallout games - the only ones I’ve played are 1, 2, and Tactics, where the various Miniguns (with the proper skills/perks, although “proper training” is something that should be assumed with any weapon) do just fine at medium to long range.
Having played a lot of DoWII, the stats reflect that Terminator Assault Cannons are the Medium-Long ranged fire support compliment to the Storm Bolter’s Close-Medium general purpose. Outside of stats, the Assault Cannon’s role as a Medium-Long range fire support weapon is is further supported by how commonly Assault Cannons are mounted on Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders, and other vehicles and aircraft that are not portrayed by DoWII.
Ultimately, I’m going to have to disagree with you. I’m not going to argue that the typical Minigun isn’t easier to handle at close range, but that’s how most guns are anyways, so I don’t think it counts for much.
Oh, sure. But something that’s seen less than one in five games doesn’t say “actively used” to me.
I agree that the core of his kit is well-designed - the Basic Attack > Overkill > Frag Grenade sequence feels very natural. However, in my opinion, being able to kill most Heroes in under three seconds at Level 4 is not something that should be possible for a character that has so many other advantages (health, DPS, ect). I very heavily disagree that the Heroics are balanced against each other, but I’ve already gone over why I feel the way I do in the Review proper and won’t restate my thoughts on the matter unless you ask me to.
I’m one of the people who felt that Tychus was fine during the “Golden Age”, and HOTSlogs (flawed as it is) backed that up. His pickrate was crazy high, that much was true, but his winrate was a healthy 50%. He was so commonly chosen because the Double Tank Meta was in full swing, so everyone wanted Tychus’s ability to reliably beat up Tanks.
As someone who played Tychus a lot before he got Minigun, I have to disagree that it “completes” his kit. The core gameplay loop has been the same since inception - use Basic Attacks for as long as is convenient, pop Overkill when they run, throw Frag Grenade to either secure the kill or (if they’re not low enough) to tack on an extra bit of damage before they move out of range, and use Run and Gun at any step as positioning demands.
The addition of Minigun made the first part much stronger, but I take issue with just how strong it is - especially given how early it’s available and how much general performance Tychus has to sacrifice for it.
Oh man, I begged for Stuff to heal after 3 seconds when that patch came out, but the future refused to change.
Spray ‘n’ Pray increasing Basic Attack Range by 1 is an interesting concept that would go a long, long way towards making it viable if we’re talking about small changes.
IMO they already do - Frag Grenade to get them out of your personal space, Run and Gun to get some extra distance, Overkill to prevent them from mounting/stealthing while you make your escape. I just feel that the other options are more viable: Tychus is a very all-in type of character and Level 20 Teamfights are typically very all-in, so mobility and range don’t seem that great by comparison (especially when you get better range from Odin and good burst/AOE).
That’s fair.
yeah combat tactician is not good to the extreme
I don’t think that it’s placed incorrectly - it makes Frag Grenade shunt enemies a pretty significant distance and with enough practice becomes a pick-generating machine. Allowing Tychus to take both Concussion Grenade and Quarterback in their current forms* would make breaking apart teams and isolating enemies insanely easy.
*It’s important to note that I very specifically said “in their current forms”. The reason that I did exactly what I warn against in the rework (allowing Concussion Grenade and Quarterback to be taken together) is because I cut the increased Radius from Concussion Grenade, making it much harder to get value out of the knockback.
Personally, I could see Lead Rain at Level 7. You’d need a replacement for the empty 16 slot, though.
If you’re trying to maintain Tychus’s current status quo, sure - but in my opinion, he needs a lot more than that.
It can be. However, I believe that most of a character’s talents should have solid pickrates across all skill levels. Of course, there are always going to be outliers here and there, but to me having more than three talents at a sub-20% pickrate (let alone sub-10%) is a solid indicator of an issue.
I don’t feel that all heroes have to be the same, but I do feel that all heroes should feel good on some level. There’s a world of difference between a Tychus with 4.5 range and a Tychus with 5.5 range, and it’s not just because I’m old and I remember how things used to be that I feel that way. When I play other Ranged Assassins, I don’t feel their Basic Attack Range is a limitation - even if I’m playing Cassia or Mephisto, who also have reduced Basic Attack Range.
I think the greatest difference between Tychus and the other reduced-range Assassins is that they have short-cooldown, medium-long range skillshots that allow them to participate in ranged fights consistently. Tychus… doesn’t. He’s too all-or-nothing for that.
IMO Tychus is actually a great solo-laner because of just how quickly he can use The Bigger They Are… to kill someone. Granted, it’s a trick that doesn’t work multiple times in a row because your opponent quickly learns to stop letting you shoot them, but he’s a lot better at it than you would expect.
IMO, two clear builds isn’t good enough - especially when Level 1 and 7 are basically set in stone.
I feel that you misunderstood the purpose of that particular point. I’m not trying to compare game mechanics in their entirety, just point out that miniguns are typically not considered to be reduced-range weapons in popular media.
Great read. I’ll start with things I have issues with then talk about what I love.
I disagree with this trait for three reasons that share the same root.
1. A lot of tanks /bruisers either don’t have armor, or have it for a very limited time. Diablo for example can only get armor if he picks “Sacrificial souls” at Lvl 4. Having Tychus’ trait do nothing against a target like Diablo feels counteractive to me.
For tanks that do have armor effects. They usually last about 3 seconds. Meaning even when it does come up, you’d have your trait for about 25-30 seconds per game.
2. More tanks will be released in the game. And they will all be different. Some will have sustain based on health regen (Zerg tank) , shields (Protoss), protected status, health steal etc. Which means as the game gets older. This trait will keep getting less and less value.
3. In quick match, you’d basically not have a trait in the majority of games. Most QM games have a bunch of squishy targets with no armor, or people just don’t pick armor talents.
Is it the Odin that assembles over 3 seconds or the shields?
Heartbreaker
Aren’t you afraid that Blizzard would hate the interaction with “Nice try, idiot” and kill it? Or do you feel it’s mitigated? with the increased attack range, he can start trading better with other assassins again. (Old Thychus with “Rhythm of the stuff” could just stand still and right click Raynor and win for example. They didn’t like that)
Bob and weave almost feels like a must pick. Especially if I’m planning to pick “Shake it off”. The boost to your survival seems too good to pass up. Especially since it can help chase and secure kills like Gun runner would do, making that talent redundant. with the difference of being useful on offense AND defense. It feels like it would do what dash currently does.
I think this is the talent that bothers me the most. Losing my AoE /wave clear for the rest of the game is a pretty steep price to pay. It feels much better to pick “Spray and pray” having 25% damage increase instead of 50%, but keeping all my siege and wave clearing, giving me more overall damage. Both because I still hit non-heroes, but also because I still get to hit heroes in an AoE. It also means taking longer to grab merc camps.
I’m not sold on AA range talents for Tychus in general. The fact that overkill can now be canceled makes this talent a bit better than it would be if given to Tychus as is, by itself. But you’re basically trading Q’s dps for the extra dps from having increased range. And you also trade Q’s mobility. Using Run and gun, puts you in the same position. I’m burning my mobility / escape in exchange for extra range.
If I picked “Bob and weave” Lvl 1. I can’t justify picking this since my extra charge already does most of what the extra range would give me. So it doesn’t feel like a Lvl 16 talent.
If I picked Real Odin, blinds will not be an issue. It’s more useful if you picked “Heartbreaker” But I don’t know that it’s a level 20 power spike talent. However, since Heartbreaker reduces its own duration over the course of the game, and it already starts at 5 seconds, when , to my knowledge, the game’s longest blind is 4 seconds. You already mitigate blinds simply by picking and using heartbreaker. So I can’t see a reason to pick this. It could be good in a few rare cases. But it’s not Lvl 20 good to me.
I’m also on the fence about Tychus getting his tank busting power only at Lvl 10 (Optionally).
However, I love the Lvl 1 talent redo. I don’t understand why there are players picking anything other than Dash.
Great option. Gives some extra usefulness to Tych on BoE.
Good talent and AMAZING design. Trading extra mana for a get out of jail is wonderful balance. It doesn’t let you just ignore roots completely.
The shield instead of armor on Odin is a nice touch. As it actually scales. So your ult doesn’t die faster as the game goes on.
Great option. You can open with grenade, activate overkill, and throw another grenade 3 seconds after overkill ends. Makes you a bit more bursty.
Great Talent, though I wish it was worded as giving the 5% buff when you activate overkill and for 4 seconds after, so you could Activate, immediately Q, then Q again at the end (With mean Machine). Added Synergy.
This talent fits Tychus perfectly. It wouldn’t really work on any other hero. Kudos.
I LOVE this. It’s so frustrating how useless the current Nuke is. No one is ever going to stand on the AoE for 3 seconds, unless they’re rooted or stunned for that long. And if they are, they’re going to die whether you have the nuke or not.
I’m Korean HOTS gamer and I don’t speak english very well but many Korean players can’t understand… Why are you reworking Tychus? we think its strong and balanced enough. please don’t touch good characters (like Lucio and Tychus) and rework on CHEN AND D.VA
I will try to explain clearly in case you or any others are using a machine translation. Please let me know if anything I say is not clear.
First of all, I am not a HOTS developer, I am a community member, so please do not worry about my time being spent poorly! It is my time to waste and I have fun with big projects like these.
Second, I know that Tychus is “balanced”, but I think it is because his strengths and weaknesses are more extreme than most characters. I made the rework because it does not feel fair to delete a full-health Valla in under 3 seconds even though it’s “okay” because Tychus has reduced range and cannot Stutter Step. I still want Tychus to be strong, but I do not want him to be able to do things like this so easily.
Finally, the other reason for the Rework are his Talents. I think there are many bad Tychus talents and some of the ones that are strong are strong for bad reasons (like “The Bigger They Are…”). I want to have real choices in every game, not use the same build except for one option all the time.
I do not want to do reworks for characters I know that the developers are working on because it feels bad when I know I have no chance of success. I had a Kerrigan rework that I was very proud of, but as I was finishing it up, the official one was announced because someone datamined the PTR pre-patch! I worked fast and managed to release my rework before the developers, but I didn’t have time to make it look nice or add lots of detail like I usually do, so it was not satisfying. Even worse, knowing for sure that the work I did had no purpose was discouraging. Since the developers have said that they are working on Chen, Tassadar, and D.Va, I do not want to spend effort on a rework that certainly won’t get used.
I try to focus on characters that I think have issues but aren’t major community concerns, like characters with many bad talents or low popularity. That way, I can continue having fun with the rework and maybe even convince the developers to make some changes to make the characters better without running the risk of getting crushed by the developer’s rework.
I would be willing to try reworking characters like the ones the community is not happy with if the developers gave me a chance to before they started their work, but that is very unlikely, so I will stick to my safer options.
Nope. Armor, Physical Armor, and D.Va’s Ablative Armor - that’s the whole list.
Or was, anyways.
See, I originally thought: “Oh, with doubling Tychus’s Attack Speed and halving his damage, D.Va’s Ablative Armor would make the Rework’s damage plummet immediately, so the new Trait should make an exception for that. It even makes sense, 'cause it’s got Armor right in the name!”
However, because I was so busy juggling so many other details of the rework (the survey, the images, the formatting, all of the abilities and talents, ect), I never got around to doing the math behind that. Turns out that D.Va’s Ablative Armor works on Tychus’s Basic Attacks right now, so halving the damage and doubling the Attack Speed wouldn’t actually change the impact of that particular interaction.
So yeah, don’t sweat it. New trait is just Armor and nothing else - no Protection, Parry, Evasion, or other form of defense busting.
Now, Heartbreaker? That’s Health Shred, so that doesn’t care about anything - it’s going to deal that exact Percentage Damage per hit regardless of how much Armor or Damage Reduction you have. However, that’s how all Health Shred/Percentage Damage works, so that’s nothing new.
My problem with Press the Advantage is that it encourages offensive use of Run and Gun outside of Overkill and provides nothing defensively. You’re not wrong that it makes applying Bigger’s damage easier thanks to the increased range, but that means giving up the ability to reposition during the pursuit of a wounded target - either to close the gap to ensure the kill or to dodge a skillshot that would ruin the attempt.
Dash’s grade is mostly due to its versatility. Because it improves Run and Gun as a movement ability, it has both offensive and defensive implements. Honestly, I feel it’s equal in power to Press the Advantage and Combat Tactician with only 10 Globes - that extra Movement Speed after Run and Gun does a lot more than most folks expect (myself included, most of the time).
The grade of B is because of how well it synergizes with Commandeer Odin. Without that Heroic in play, I’d say Master Assassin is about a C+ because of how much effort you have to put into it to get any value. I’d even go so far as to say it’s just a “win more” talent - if you manage to get 15 kills out of the other team, you’re probably winning unless they’ve got a D.Va, Murky, or suicidal Misha.
I can’t say I agree. The other two options at 16 are damage-oriented, and they’re very good damage-oriented options at that. Titan Grenade offers a pretty substantial bump to Tychus’s burst and Armor Piercing Rounds is great for burning down squishy targets. I feel that it is much more valuable to magnify Tychus’s effectiveness than try to branch out into what is supposed to be the Tank’s job - especially when the primary value comes with taking the worst Level 13 talent.
Y’know what? Fair enough. I’ll bump up its grade a bit.
It could make sense moving it, at least at level 7 it feels more balanced in the power it gives.
The problem is that because they are both placed at the same tier, you cant realy focus on a more grenade heavy build. You generaly want to use the knockback to push people back into your range, but the initial grenade range isnt that big to begin with.
Moving the talent allows a synergy to happen. And together they can create a seperate build option (rather than choosing mobility to catch up, you go for knockback to hinder their movement), while both can essentialy perform the same task (preventing the enemy from running).
Tychus is mostly needed when 2 warrior comps are becoming mandatory again in every single game. As at that point you will benefit. His current state is however quite balanced and a decent tychus is going to be a pain anyway.
Its just that atm for QM he lacks as he no longer can solo, but in HL/TL he can still perform his job when there are synergizing heroes in the team. And at that point he remains dangerous.
But thats also why i stated the extra range option at level 13. This allows a healer to compensate and bring tychus back into a very strong position.
Tychus is simply a hero thats either too strong, or slightly too weak. But in a healthy way. He can still be played as a punisher for a bad draft. And even without a bad draft, he has his uses (because you can still quickly take people down to 50% health, which warriors simply dont like).
I think that in the ideal situation that should be, but if on both levels there are always 2 talents viable, that its still fine. Just like varian had a 2 talents on 1 tier situation aswel. Its a healthy situation. Its only bad when 1 talent is the go-to talent in nearly all situations.
The reason it feels as an issue is because you remember it. For a fresh player the 4.5 feels as a difficult part, but can be worked around. Its the same reason why after lunara’s rework i play her less often. I remember her old state and just cannot get used to the new state.
Thats still 10x better than the ammount of options medivh had before, and now has after the rework. Rarely ever do heroes have 2 reliable builds. Even ragnaros (which i consider 1 of the best regarding build options), has restrictions on builds.
And moving talents which can synergize can do already enough to fix the issue.
Idealy you would like 3 builds, but thats simply rare to make it happen when you have a hero that would rely a lot about 1 trait ability (it basicly allows a ‘use trait as primary’ or a ‘use trait as secondary’ option).
But i do agree that some changes have to be done anyway. But its not a priority rework at all, and thats why he shouldnt get too much major changes. Its just a few underused talents that could need a buff or move.
That is one way to look at it, yeah. On the other hand: you have Tychus’s insanely good statblock, featuring second-highest base DPS and third-highest Maximum Health for Ranged Assassins with no range reduction to hold it back.
That doesn’t bother me as much as you’d imagine. Each character has pros and cons when it comes to going up against other characters, and it’s not like Tychus would completely lose access to Health Shred with the new Trait.
Like I said in response to your first point: Tychus would still be a very strong statball with a very solidly designed core kit, so this isn’t as big of a deal as you would imagine.
Shields would be applied instantly, Odin would be assembled over 3 seconds. I should clarify that.
The amount of healing that Nice Try would give is nowhere near the amount of healing you used to be able to do from Rhythm of the Stuff (which is a great nickname and one I’m totally stealing).
Against an unarmored target, 15% of Tychus’s 200 DPS would restore 30 Health per second.
Against a target with 75 Armor, the amount healed would increase to 37.5% of Tychus’s 200 DPS for 75 Health per second.
Back in the day of Rhythm of the Stuff, Tychus healed for 2% of the target’s Maximum Health (increased to 3% with Sizzlin’ Attacks). The Average Warrior’s Health Pool is 2,562, so Tychus would get 51.24 Health per second by default and 76.86 Health per second with Sizzlin’ Attacks.
The maximum amount of healing from Nice Try seems concerning at first, but effects that hit 75 Armor are actually pretty rare and, when they do show up, pretty short-lived. For the majority of time, Tychus is only going to be getting 30 Health per second.
The problem with Rhythm of the Stuff is that it allowed Tychus to latch on to high-health targets (Stitches is the obvious example, but also things like the Garden Terror, Dragon Knight, and Volskaya Protector) and turn them into Healing Wells. I have a replay from the glory days floating around somewhere where I 1v1’d a Garden Terror and it couldn’t even deal lasting damage because I would immediately heal.
That all said: I’m totally okay with Nice Try getting tuned down, either by myself or the HOTS Team (in the unlikely event that they decide to implement my work). As long as Tychus has the option, I’m fine with whatever.
All of the Talents at Level 1 are intended to be able to be used both Offensively and Defensively, but you are correct that Bob and Weave is more versatile than the other two options. Based on your feedback, I’ll change it to “can be activated again within a few seconds at cost for an untalented Run and Gun”. That way, players will still be able to do the double-scoot, but won’t be able to get doubled value out of Shake it Off or Comin’ Through.
I’m fine with the option being unappealing to you - that’s why there are two other talents at that tier, both of which come with no downside. Although, I should mention that taking Focused Fire doesn’t cut down Tychus’s Waveclear entirely - he’s still got Frag Grenade and you can still take Shredder Grenade at 4 to improve your Non-Heroic damage output.
I think you’re overlooking that this is all abilities, though - Frag Grenade, Commandeer Odin (and Annihilate, and Ragnarok Missiles, and Thrusters, and Nuclear Missile) and Heartbreaker are included in this. The player can sacrifice Overkill and Run and Gun to get the bonus, but they don’t necessarily have to because throwing a grenade or activating a buff will do the job just fine.
You’re not wrong that Heartbreaker’s extended duration is naturally resistant to Blinds and that the Odin has more to offer than Basic Attacks. However, when Tychus gets Blinded, that’s X amount of seconds that he’s cut off from one of his most significant sources of damage. Heartbreaker could get up to tens of seconds in duration, but if the majority of the teamfight happens while Tychus is Blind, he provides little value.
It’s the same logic behind why The Bigger They Are… is so powerful - it increases your strength in the short term (or, in this specific case, prevents you from being drastically weakened in the short term).
I can understand this point of view, but as someone who was playing Tychus long before Minigun was reworked into a combined Searing Attacks/Giant Killer, he doesn’t necessarily need it to be a base part of his kit. He’s extremely beefy for a Ranged Assassin and his DPS is great - it’s not like he’d be unable to bully Tanks and other durable targets by virtue of simply shooting them like he does everything else.
dude same
The worst part is, it isn’t even necessarily that Dash provides a huge amount of value - it’s just that the other options are so… meh.
yeah boiiii destroy all skeletons
and minion lines
and mercenary camps
Thank you, I’m really glad you like it. Reminder that I’m technically weakening it by making Bob and Weave’s second Run and Gun untalented, though.
I mean, the 25 Armor also scales. I just like the Shields more because it gives Odin value as a panic button and it makes it easier to visualize just how much you’re getting durability-wise out of Odin.
Correct! It also gets extra value if you’re hitting more than one target, making it extremely effective in Teamfights.
There’s effectively no difference. Overkill’s first tick of damage happens immediately, so I’m not sure why you would want that specifically.
It’s inspired by the scenes on Char where he’s manning the Double Minigun Turret. He’s just sitting and shooting and having the time of his life!
I feel like you quoted the wrong Level 20 'cause you’re talking about Nuke when you’re showing Love Taker. BUT EITHER WAY
Yeah I was never a fan of bundling Nuke with Ragnarok Missiles. My original thought was maybe that having it as its own skill made the Odin too flexible, but then again, it’s a Level 20 Talent, so… c’mon, let us have that.
I’m glad you approve. I hope I addressed your feedback in a satisfactory manner as well.
Heartbreaker and his relate stuff have some scary numbers considering his trait and AA speed, also press the advantage sound OP, maybe 3 seconds is enough, but i’m not a tychus expert, so don’t take it serious.
Actually he’s right. A lot of people are still picking “In the rhythm” and “That’s the stuff” together like before Tychus got nerfed. They no longer have Synergy.
You only get to heal after minigun ends. So the longer minigun lastts, the longer it takes to get your healing. Which means as you stack ItR, you start dying long before you can get your health back.
“The bigger they are” is one of the biggest power spike ability in the game. No other hero can deal as much damage as quickly. No you can’t take down the target down after 35% with it. But that would be asking to pretty much have an ability that lets you 100% to 0% a tank. That’s never going to happen.
It’s not like Tychus has to kill his target completely by himself. Your team is supposed to secure the kill that you serve them on a platter. If four other heroes can’t kill a target below 35%. The problem is not Tychus.
Within two to three seconds, you create kill pressure on a front line target. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
Yeah. It wouldn’t be a bad change in and of itself, but it would have a lot of collateral damage - it leaves a hole in Level 16 and it might make Level 7 too crowded.
I think where you and I differ is that I don’t think that Tychus needs a Grenade Build. I feel like he’s too focused on combining his skills effectively instead of someone like Kael’thas or Gul’dan, whose skills are mostly useful tools that you throw out when the opportunity presents itself.
Like I said before, adding +1 Basic Attack Range to Spray ‘n’ Pray would do a lot to help the talent. I feel like it would also help Tychus’s standing in general a bit, but that does nothing to address things like Level 1 and 4 having “best in class” options, Relentless Soldier barely helping, the anti-synergy with In The Rhythm, or any of the other talent/design/gameplay issues I went over.
This is the root of our disagreements, though: you and I view a polarized game experience in very different lights. I think that a character that is either very strong or very weak with little middle ground is in a bad place, even if their winrate is within the “acceptable” range. When there’s too much that can go right and there’s too much that can go wrong, in either case the end result is going to feel unfair or frustrating for someone, and I don’t like that.
Tychus isn’t like that, though. Dash is basically mandatory, The Bigger They Are… is so much stronger than the other two options that people are literally restricting themselves by picking anything else, Quarterback is far and away the easier talent to get value from compared to Concussive Grenade. You get some variation once you hit 13 and 16, but Tychus suffers from Best Build Syndrome pretty badly.
Not necessarily just that I remember it, but also because I can easily compare the gameplay of other reduced-range characters as well. Cassia and Mephisto, for example, hardly feel the restriction of their Basic Attack Range because their kits were designed with it in mind and their abilities make up for it easily. Blaze, Zarya, and D.Va are all hardy frontline types and have AoE and defensive skills to make up for their reduced range.
Tychus just doesn’t have the same level of sophistication.
Just because other Heroes have it worse doesn’t mean that I can’t aim for “better”. A problem is a problem, regardless of who has it.
In my opinion, whether something is “priority” or not should not dictate the level of detail put into an overhaul. I prefer to do things right the first time, regardless of how much work is required - otherwise you wind up with a situation where you have to repeatedly update a character to solve the shortcomings of the previous attempt.
It’s not any more damaging than the current Minigun:
Current Tychus attacks 4 times per second and Minigun adds 2.5% Health Shred per hit. 4 x 2.5 = 10, so Minigun deals 10% of the target’s Maximum Health in damage per second.
Reworked Tychus attacks 8 times per second and Heartbreaker adds 1.25% Health Shred per hit. 8 x 1.25 = 10, so Heartbreaker deals 10% of the target’s Maximum Health in damage per second.
Granted, Heartbreaker lasts longer and can extend its duration even further, but on the surface the performance is more or less the same.
All feedback is welcomed, my friend! You don’t need to be an expert to suggest something feels strong. Why do you think that it sounds OP as it is?
This is just my opinion, but I’m actually of the opinion that both ults need to be made permanent. DLD being a permanent turret that deals less damage, and Odin being a permanent form that gives him different abilities.
There’s pretty much no way that could work. Laser Drill being permanent could very easily lead to some very degenerative/exploitative gameplay because it outranges towers. Odin being permanent would invalidate most of Tychus’s talents unless he got a complete overhaul that added Odin-specific effects for his entire tree.
That’s why you would have to reduce the range as well. The problem with how it is currently is that you have to set it up in the middle of a team fight, and planting it down is a signal to not dive the Tychus. Instead Tychus could plant it down and force the enemy team to fight on two points.
But reducing the range makes it even worse than it currently is. The extra range is one of the few things keeping viable - without that, it’d have so little threat due to its lack of coverage and its relative fragility that it would be basically unusable. You’d have to buff its damage and durability so high that at that point you’re probably better off redoing it altogether.
Besides, the Laser Drill’s range is part of it being a Laser Drill - in Starcraft II, Drakken Laser Drills have global range. Reduce its range enough and you might as well replace it with a generic mech turret, either Auto or Devastator.
