Heroes of the Storm 3.0

I understood what I explained wrong, now I will try to explain everything more correctly and clearly.
The main feature of the game is that the overall experience for the whole team remains as it is, without this HOTS is not HOTS. The team also unlocks talents by reaching levels 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 20. Until the overall level of the team reaches these levels, these talents remain unavailable.
What I called buying talents during a game session is also what we do now when we reach one of these levels by simply choosing one of the offered ones for free to use it in the game. But if you introduce, in addition to the general experience of the team, also the accrual of personal experience points for which we will activate the talents that open for access to the selection, spending the accumulated personal experience points on them, then I thought that it would probably be correct to say “buy talents for points”, but apparently I made a little mistake in my own terminology if it knocked you down confused.

About “personal experience points” - they are already in the game now, when we open the statistics of the game, we constantly see them on the screen at any stage of the game, they are counted as “personal experience” that each player has invested in the experience of the team. Yes, I understand that on different heroes this experience will always not be equivalent, as for example on Mediva or Nova, if they are constantly involved purely to fulfill their own roles. As for example, yesterday I myself played on Nova - 8 murders, 18 murders, 0 deaths, and the whole team praised me with likes, but at the same time, I still brought the least experience to the team according to statistics. For the system that I propose, this is a problem whose solution I also proposed in the following version.
Let’s say we can leave the earnings of the general experience as it is, but for each individual role of the heroes it is not suitable if they will earn experience for which they will now “buy-discover” talents in the game, which means it needs to be compensated with something. So that the player could devote himself more to the task set for his hero according to the chosen role, and not go, for example, on a Blaze to push creeps on the top while his team without a tank dies at the other end of the map, and he only translates fuel oil in vain to men who burn too slowly in it to be useful for this. This means that “personal points” should be awarded additionally for completing these tasks. So to do so:
TANKS - get extra points for the amount of damage they take on in team skirmishes. Previously, I even remember this was reflected in the statistics and everyone could see how much damage which hero received, but apparently they were removed because according to the results of the tanks they could just throw reports if some other hero who was not designed to absorb damage at all scored more by stats, Murky, Ilidan or even Azmodan and this had to tank on Azmo when it was still possible to play it through the old beam.
HEALERS AND SUPPORT - Get extra points for the amount of health healed by the team or damage prevented.
ASSASSINS - get a small bonus to points for participating in the murder and a good bonus if they kill the enemy heroes themselves. Because most murderers are also engaged in push, and most of the experience is collected from this, and if they were given a bonus just for participating in the murders, it would create an imbalance, but if they themselves try harder to kill enemies by spending less time on push, then the increased premium for killing heroes will compensate them, especially for such a hero as Nova, it will no longer be possible to be torn between the choice - to spend an ulta to kill a pack of creeps or launch it into a bunch of opponents fighting with your team.
BRUSERS - it’s difficult to decide unambiguously what exactly to charge them extra points for, since most of the characters in this class are very multitasking, so the only thing I could come up with to offer them is to charge extra points for how they move from one task to another. Namely - let’s say Sonya - in the beginning she goes with the whole team to mid and there helps her team to commit the first murder, getting points for all this as usual, but then goes to another line and starts killing creeps collecting experience, for switching from one task to another, she gets a bonus to the points she gets for what that time, then immediately goes on to capture the nearest camp and gets another raise, saw that the heroes are fighting again nearby and hurries to help them - another increase in the points received, and thus it turns out that the more often the bruiser switches from one task to another, the more he will receive an increase in personal points.

Now about “BUYING TALENTS” during a game session, between game sessions, for money and for points, what is the difference, why buy if you can’t use it or how to use it once bought?
In order to use the talent from among those that I suggested adding to the game “general talents”, you must first get it at your own disposal in order to add the already selected hero to the list of his own talents. Then he appears in the game and when you open the level at which he was placed - now you can choose to “buy” him for personal points or “buy” your hero’s native talent (that is, choose, but now not for free as now, but for points) so that he becomes active in this game session.
How to get this talent? To be honest, you will have several options for how to get it - they will be in the store to buy for one of the currencies or, like the heroes, there may be two prices for one and the second currency, one of which will periodically become less at a discount for a limited period. But you will also have a chance to get them for free by accidentally falling out of the chest, as it works now with all the other items in the game.
Your next question is “why should I pay if I can get it for free anyway?” It’s very simple. The more variety of “common talents” is made in the game, the less chance that you will get exactly the one that you want and it will probably be faster and easier to get it from the store, and one purchase I think will not make you a beggar if the prices of course remain reasonable like today in the game.
But how to make a player want to buy more even if they have the opportunity to get the same for free? In my very first post, I talked about the talent improvement system - having one ordinary talent, you can add it to your hero and play like this, but if you have three such identical ordinary talents, you can collect from them already one improved talent with a pumped main characteristic for which you use it. But if you have already managed to collect three improved talents, now you can collect one epic talent from them by improving its main characteristic as much as possible! Thus, one simple talent may not seem enough to you, but you cannot get improved and epic versions of it anywhere, they are not sold in the store, they do not fall out of the chests, they can only be collected independently, which means you have two options, or play for a long time and cover many and many chests in the hope that you will fall out someday there will be enough identical copies - or you can buy all these copies in the store and this choice is completely yours!
How then to keep the balance in the game if such talents appear in it? As I described above, depending on the level at which you place the talent, the time of its cooldown will change, but the price of “buying-choosing” it in the game will increase accordingly to the level at which it is located. Similarly, when you improve the characteristics of a talent by getting an improved version of it, the cost of its “purchase-choice” during the game also becomes higher, which means that in order to use it in the game, you need to play very well and competently perform the tasks assigned to the role of your hero in order to accumulate a sufficient number of “personal points” to turn it on, or you can choose this talent and you will not have enough points to take some native talent of your hero and you will have to score points again. It turns out that the cooler the talent, the more expensive it is to use during the game and if you are a weak player, it will be more difficult for you to activate it, and it is unlikely that such a player will run to buy these talents, but if you play very well, then there will be no such problem for you and, on the contrary, it will be profitable for you to pay for these talents to surprise them the game has its own teammates, and this is probably already the level of the game somewhere from platinum or diamond.
What about the weak bronze players? Yes, I understand what you’re talking about. A weak player against a strong one will not be able to score enough points, he will most likely lag behind him by several levels. But what we have with recruitment in the league today, if we do what I suggest, it can change everything if players have the opportunity to buy more than one talent per level. Especially when you open the statistics and see such a picture: you yourself have collected 25k experience, your allies each have 8-7k, and someone has 5k experience at all, and opponents have only 15-12k experience for each, due to the fact that they simply killed your allies. And it turns out that you see how you drag the whole team with your own hands, but you can’t do anything else with it, or how you can’t realize this potential, and these numbers don’t bring you any joy, rather, on the contrary, they disappoint. But if you could implement this result into the fact that at their expense “buy-choose” a few more talents from those that are already available to you at your level, wouldn’t it be able to help you? Wouldn’t it have changed the game for the better and maybe you would have been able to lead your allies to victory, despite how poorly they play, and in the end everyone is happy and no one swears in the chat!
I think even more, it would help the players to sort themselves out among themselves according to the level of their game, the weak would have stayed playing with the weak and no longer prevented other players from playing their bad game that pulls the team down, but would have played more with the same as they feel equal with them.

What drives you to make these suggestions?
It would be interesting to know your background on Hots.
Rank, role, number of games played, etc.

Yeah that’s a hard pass for me. The metrics given are all flawed. I am too lazy to explain again why. I get that these metrics can be usefull data but they are certainly not the only thing that makes a player good. Given the number of people arguing about “I got lots of MVP, I must be good” or “Guys, I have the most damage. You are all bad”, I don’t want flawed metrics to be even more emphasized. But the more important thing is that this system would enforce role on a hero basis and basically forces a team composition. Something like a double healer composition is no longer a thing in this kind of system.

The gatcha like system is also a hard pass.

I agree that more players and developpers are good for the game, actually especially players. But I don’t believe this a good answer to that problem. The monetization problem is actually not a problem since HotS, as a game, not HGC, was actually profitable. Well profitable at least untill the end of HGC since my source was talking about that. You can always say, not enough profitable if you want. Advertizing would be a good start. Currently, I just hope they put HotS on Steam or similar platforms to attract more people to the game.

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Did I say that the statistics in the game play reflect the real real benefit from the actions of a player who is trying to prove that he is a better player than others based only on these figures, despite the fact that his team for some reason still loses? no!
I even gave an example with Nova and Medivh for a reason, since in competent hands these heroes, fulfilling their role, bring a lot of benefit to their team and are able to give a big advantage in the game, but at the same time their numbers will always remain one of the smallest. You can beat the enemy a lot, but every time you let him retreat, so that he would come back again and take your experience while you unsuccessfully chase after him, but not once without killing him, and in the end you will have a lot of damage on the numbers, but you could not bring real benefit to the team. And there is a player who comes to the enemy, makes a couple of accurate and quick strikes, and kills the enemy, and in the end he will have a lot less damage by numbers because he did not waste time just to fill the numbers. So I totally agree with you on this, friend!
But when I talked about the statistics that are collected in these figures, I only pointed out the fact that this is already in the game, which means that what I’m talking about can be implemented by simply adding to what already exists - to make useless useful!

Regarding the addition of HOTS to steam, I think it won’t change much, for overwatch, for example, it turned out to be a bad experience. But even if the players who came to HOTS from steam will appreciate it well, I doubt that it will be of enough use, because most likely there will also be few such players - IF NO ONE TALKS ABOUT IT! Who will come to you if no one knows about you? How many similar examples I personally know in the same incentive, when the most interesting and magnificent games with original mechanics were closed in the same incentive - SIMPLY BECAUSE OF the LACK OF ADVERTISING FROM THEIR DEVELOPERS!!!
I have a product, I need to sell it, but no one knows that I have it, no one except me knows what it is, and passing by they glance at it do not understand why they need it and pass by because I am silent when they approach my counter… Today, even small shopkeepers order advertising to sell the most banal goods! And the giant developers think - we made the game, it’s cool, now let it be played and we’ll make money from it, and we don’t want to do anything else, we want to get money because we think we’ve done enough for this… And who will come to play your game if no one knows about it???
It’s good if you at least have an active community who create a lot of fan production on their own and do your work for you, telling the world how great it is for them to play your products, but even here you can’t relax, because fans do their creativity only for other fans and people from the outside often just don’t like such creativity. of course, this helps to keep the audience, but it will not attract new players, so one way or another you will still need advertising., and it’s even better to advertise based on competition so that players from other games have more reasons to discuss your game, let them argue, let them sort things out, but to get arguments they will still have to come and play your game and no matter what they say later, they have already been here and even if they say that they didn’t like it, it won’t necessarily be true and they’ll come back here because it’s a different world! And the fact that they have already taken it up will be an example for others and they will also come here. In the end, the disputes will subside and the players will come to an agreement and reconciliation, but it is important to make sure that this agreement is on your side of the border! But we don’t even have that… And it’s sad…

Well, about all my suggestions, of course, most of all I would like to still add the opportunity for players to get more than one talent to the level because it would make life a lot easier for strong players who, because of our special personality of the game, often suffer from the fact that weak players simply pull them to the bottom of the level not giving enough to be fully realized and in the end they only leave disappointment. Let them fight among themselves, let someone specially stand afc, but I came to play and I want to play, I want to be able to influence the game even despite these people and even playing 4 against 5 have more chances to win, and not to overcome myself for 20 minutes and still be doomed to defeat having sky-high indicators in numbers from which there is no consolation, only more reasons for disappointment looking at meaningless statistics and understanding - “yes, I could, but I was deprived of the opportunity to realize it,” and not so much because I play the best, but because someone spent time swearing, someone stood afk, and someone on the contrary ran to feed. And you fought for them all, but your game didn’t inspire them for anything because you were weak because of them and couldn’t put up enough resistance because you didn’t have enough talents…
So I’m saying that if such a player had the opportunity to compensate for his good game result reflected in senselessly collected statistics, turn these statistics to real advantage and spend it on acquiring some talent from the levels already open to him, he would be able to influence the game better, resist more in battles and perhaps his example could better inspire his team to forget all disagreements, stop arguing and immerse themselves more in the gameplay.

I was also asked about my attitude to HOTS.
I’ve been playing it since Beta, I won’t say exactly from what moment, but I remember that Cho’gall hadn’t been introduced into the game yet. It seems like Artanis was added just then.
In the League on my own, I have never been able to rise above gold, but in the team league and even in the nexus league, I have never played in a party and with diamonds, and I have felt the difference in the relationship of players with each other as the league increases. To be honest, the most toxic are probably still in silver, because in bronze there are more just those who don’t care about the result and they don’t really try to try, but they still swear among themselves less. But to overcome silver is probably an even greater test than to get out of bronze. It’s already a little easier to play in gold because there are more players who already understand the mechanics and spend less time figuring things out and invest more in the process.
That’s why I ventured out with such a proposal, first of all thinking about how to make the gameplay itself more flexible so that players would have fewer reasons for negativity.

What is my personal attitude to the game itself? Some time ago I was very ill, I could not leave the house for almost a year, for several months I practically did not get up from the sofa because I was tormented by terrible shortness of breath even if I just had to get up to go to the toilet or kitchen, in those days I almost died and it seemed life was over. But it was HOTS who helped me ease my days then, this game gave me hope and did not give me despair. Today I was able to more or less return to normal life and communicate as before with other people, forgetting about my problems, to regain the normal soy life of a healthy person. And all along my way, when all my acquaintances and people who once called themselves my friends forgot me, while I could please them with something, but when I was powerless, they simply forgot about my existence. Only HOTS was by my side (and of course my mom), he gave me support and hope, here I found new friends, here I could communicate with the whole world without even being able to go outside, a part of my life remained here. Therefore, I especially want HOTS to continue to live and stay with us as long as possible, possibly helping to continue to live as well as he once helped me in this!

I’ll just make two remarks:

  1. PBMMR was tried and was rejected. The developers and community are aware of such a possibility. It failed on the actual implementation. I wasn’t there at the time of PBMMR but as I understand it, it used the same kind of metrics you proposed;
  2. you adress most if not all everything except the two major concerns I raised (I have more). Are there reasons for that?
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The only problem with PBMMR was that it shown the light on all those players who thought that they were ranked high because of what they thought was “skill” but then got absolutely demolished when their objective skill was actually measured and ranked.

They all screamed bloody murder until it got removed.

Riot’s in-depth talk on matchmaking & MMR.
“We don’t want to impose an arbitrary system of rating players on performance because then the best way to beat that system would probably be to get good scorelines, rather than helping the team win.”
https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/02/dev-matchmaking-real-talk/

For the monetization, else than shiny skins, they could add official stats, customized main screen wallpapers and in-game UI and so on that won’t change the game balance.

For the publicity, well peeps got hyped up on the Hots twitter account. https://twitter.com/BlizzHeroes?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
It went to IGN
https://www.ign.com/articles/blizzard-just-released-a-big-heroes-of-the-storm-patch-and-now-the-community-is-daring-to-dream
Popular streamers tried it and bring a good influx of players.
“Singsing and Gorge, big dota 2 streamer just played a few days ago and I think this could be one of the reasons why.
They did play Cho Gall together and it was hilarious.”
https://imgur.com/1k8t070

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Instead you have cheese out the wazoo driving players into the high ranks knowing nothing about how to play as a team.

If the devs want to promote team play then they should get rid of solo queue and partial teams. Players should be required to be socially adept enough to self organize into clans/guilds, just like they do in WoW Mythic Raiding, or just about any other tournament league for team games.

Otherwise they are just pandering to the same players who aren upset that their “mad skillz” arent “fairly” reflected in the ranking system when you objectively measure those very skills.

:roll_eyes:

High ranked players should be adept enough to fill out some deficits of their team with their skills and knowledge.
Thankfully, it’s not about stats farming. It’s about doing the best course of action to help your team like communicating to your team to give an objective on Garden to depush lanes.
“Cheesers” aren’t the norm at the top.

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Its just a different kind of stat farming.

Enlighten me how they do it and why aren’t you.

He’s just bitter that he can’t climb and constructed a warped framework of excuses as a coping mechanism. Shouldn’t bother engaging with him.

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Was it actually implemented? I don’t quite remember. I thought they just made it gatter data behind the scenes but never did anything with it.

Regarding PBMR, I remember what and how it was and it’s completely different from what I’m talking about.
What they tried to enter then was done in order to ignore the result of the match and calculate the statistics of each individual player, awarding him a personal rating regardless of the outcome of the game. Then it turned out that the game considered healers the most useless because they do little damage and do not absorb damage from other players, and fat tanks, on the contrary, due to the fact that they received the most damage, the system considered the best players. And the result was such that in qualifying you could play with support, sweat and lead all the games to victory, but the game will still calibrate you to bronze even if you played in diamond or platinum before. And someone lost all 10 games on the tank and flew from bronze to diamond! It was an unforgettable Christmas!

But this system has nothing to do with what I propose! There were statistics for the sake of statistics, and they decided that it would be smart to put these statistics in the league, but in the end it turned out that even the statistics themselves were originally calculated incorrectly!

What I suggest is reflected only on your personal game, on how you will dispose of it yourself and will work only if you correctly cope with your task. If you play healer, but you don’t help the team and constantly run away solo - you will be in the red. If you play on a tank, but do not participate in a teamfight, but instead spend time pushing creeps on a Blaze that burn too slowly in napalm to be at least somehow useful for this, you will find yourself in the red. If you push on the Butcher, Morales, Nova or Uther - you will be in the red because you refuse to perform the tasks assigned to your character according to the class in which he is! If you understand what the main role of your hero is, if you correctly cope with his tasks, you will be encouraged in the game, which works only during the game session, only inside each individual game session and affects only what you can do with it inside this game session. Outside of the game session, neither before nor after, it does not stick to anything, whereas PBMMR affected exactly how your account moved in the ranking due to incorrectly created statistics, but it did not help anyone with anything!

I also want to note about such a statement:

  • “He’s just bitter that he can’t climb and constructed a warped framework of excuses as a coping mechanism. Shouldn’t bother engaging with him.”
    If it was a stone in my garden and so you tried to insult me, you did not succeed, you only demonstrated your own ignorance to everyone here. And you know how smart educated people say - “if someone starts accusing you of something for no reason, most likely because he is guilty of it and is just trying to convince himself that other people do the same to simply justify their own insolvency by type - not me, life is like that, which means I’m just like everyone else… And if I make everyone think that someone is worse than me, then I myself, being like this, will seem better” This is an erroneous judgment of stupid people, I feel sorry for you if you really evaluate the people you meet in life in this way, you are an unhappy person until you get smarter.

Personally, I described above the main reasons why I came up with the idea to put my proposal up for discussion. I love this game and I want her to stay with us as long as possible. But what is happening to her today I have already seen many times in other good games THAT ARE NO MORE TODAY! And if everything continues to remain the same, nothing will change, then everything will be the same with HOTS as with all the other games before it. I haven’t seen any exceptions yet. And there were also games that were first in the launchers only from the developers and they were also later added to steam, but even there and for free they also turned out to be of no use to anyone and were disabled.

I tried to do at least something by inventing a new system, I thought about it for a long time so that it could be interesting and fit into the existing balance of the game without breaking it. I gave you a proposal for discussion, but in response I received only criticism. But I don’t care about criticism, it will always be, because it’s easy and it doesn’t cost anything. The only thing I asked for: if you criticize, offer something of your own, something interesting too… But only criticism and nothing in return.

And about the position in the rating… Do you love the game just because it allows you to be on high ratings? And then what do players with low ratings do, why do they go into a game they hate every day? It’s like loving some person just because he constantly admires you and flatters you. But those who think so, most likely they have a high position only in the game and outside the game, you probably don’t represent much of yourself, the same ordinary person as all other people, and all this imaginary significance is due to some kind of rating somewhere where there is no one else besides you will not see and will not cause admiration …? Then who will you be when your game just doesn’t exist? The game will disappear, and with it all your ratings will disappear, and then who will you be without all this? You will be left alone with reality where you are not a master, not a diamond or even platinum, and in the eyes of others you may never have risen above bronze!)

If you think I’m being unnecessarily toxic right now. This is just your opinion. Personally, I prefer to resort to thinking based on reality, and in reality I feel pretty good now - I am a musician and today I have an active social life, in the near future I will start recording. There are a lot of young girls around me every day and people show interest in me. Do you think I care about some kind of rating in some kind of game?))) It’s funny and honest)
It’s just that everything that I just described to you here, I was able to get to it thanks to HOTS, thanks to the game I found an outlet at a time when another person could give up and accept that he was dying. But HOTS helped me to hold out during difficult days, helped me to distract myself from my own experiences and when I should not have any positive experiences left, I watched HGC and worried about the teams, rejoiced at their victories, empathized with what was happening there and received positive emotions.
Then I played for days because I just had nothing else to do. Today I play for a couple of hours in the evening on the strength and then not every day, just for fun. And all I want is for it to stay with us as long as possible and that if it brought so much benefit to me, then what would benefit someone else!

PBMM was implemented, I can’t say for how long, at most 1 week? It didn’t take long for high level players to demonstrate how easy it was to farm favorable stats to please the algorithm. It functioned very much like the MVP screen algorithm, so in short, very easy to abuse.

The Devs thankfully quickly disabled it.

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As I ubderstand it, PBMMR was online for around 1 or 2 months.

If I recall correctly, PBMM was only active for high ranks. It might have stuck around for 1–2 months, but if I remember correctly, that season had other issues too.

Yeah they said they fixed some bugs but there were still problems remaining.

Edit: it is unclear if if was other bugs or something more fundamental about, let’s say the maths.

It wasn’t that long, definitely not 2 months. I think it was like 1 week like you said, maybe 2. It was a lot more complex than the MVP screen which is incredibly rudimentary, but still laughably horrible. It completely screwed up everyone’s MMR. I remember genuinely terrible people jumping old ranks, and GMs getting like minor negative adjustments. It was so bad they had to reset people’s old MMR.

I’m still shocked that they even attempted it. The only way a system like this might be okay with LIMITED use (and it would still be bad in my opinion) is ironically in a game that doesn’t patch anymore lol. I mean the fact that they couldn’t even account for the fact that all the data they gathered would be useless the minute they pushed a balance patch is just like, it kills me. I know they all had the best of intentions, but come on.

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Your ideas screams “I’m a ranged dps main in silver that bring big dmg to the table, but my healer won’t heal me on CD, my tank doesn’t want to sacrifice himself for me, my offlaner is chasing minions and don’t want to fight half the time.”.
Your past account, JeanFrancois, is that it?

Roles aren’t set in stone.
During the draft phase, if there’s no offlaner and 2 healer mains, it can happen that one of them will pick Rehgar to offlane. His job will be to cover lanes with his waveclear.

I was Diablo in a game where I had top soak on my team, top hero dmg, top dmg taken, top deaths. In the end I got MVP and was proud to terrorize both heroes and minions in my way. I don’t want to be a punching bag for my team so that my ranged carries feel good about themselves, you know?
Playing as a tank was rewarding that way and kept me going. I’m not a tank main, but I’m now glad to fill in.

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