No, this is not a salty thread. I’m just curious since in the PTR they did an amazing job with Mephisto, however, the buff to longboat was ridiculos at his best.
For a long time TLV have remain as one of the heroes who feel “old”, so, I’m just wondering, do devs even know how the hero works?
I think it’s valid question since the bois are hard to use and undestand and is nothing wrong to admit that.
Honestly, Kith’s idea to buff longboat was waaaaaaay better and I thinl listen to ideas like that one would be a better idea instead of just increase the numbers of bad talents but that is just what I think.
Any way, what do think?
I’ve Level 31 with The Lost Vikings, and they are my second most played hero in Hero/Storm League over the history of the game (this is my external data, dunno about my internal stats with them).
Multi-unit control heroes have always kinda been my thing since I come from a background of playing many RTS games like Starcraft.
In regards to my take on them, I believe that over time the Vikings have become fairly problematic in how much they warp games that they’re in to generally be much less fun for everyone else involved. It’s a complicated problem to solve that would likely require big changes to how they work if we wanted to live in a world where it’s ok for them to be seen as much as more standard heroes like Valla or Li-Ming.
They are one of the last heroes who retain talents from their old design philosophies. So much of the game has changed since then.
I don’t think it’s a case of not being able to play them but more to do with the following line of thought:
Dev 1: TLV need a rework. Their design is outdated and their mechanics brings problems to the game.
Dev 2: True, but only a small percentage of the population actually enjoy playing them so it’s not worth the effort or development time. We need more bang for our buck.
Dev 1: More bang for our buck? Okay. Let’s make a new Liming / Whitemayne / valla skin.
Dev 2: Now you’re talking.
Thank you for the response. I really apreciate your job but I must admit sometimes I’ve my doubts like with Whitemane rework.
Anyway, keep doing your best. I love this game and I wish you and all the team the best luck.
P.d. I don’t know who made the changes to Mephisto but please tell him/her he/she did an amazing job.
How do you play them?
I find them to be quite fun to play in a single lane, but their ability to split off when needed is helpful as well so I wouldn’t like them to be restricted to only being able to do that. Especially when their capability of soaking 3 lanes at once is unique among the heroes.
I think their talents frequently don’t facilitate either method of play though.
I hope its ok that i disagree with this assessment, or at least let me offer this counter point - the majority of players dont like to play the map, they like to brawl.
TLV “warp the game” so to speak in that they force you to either play the map efficiently or try to blunt force an obj (map obj or enemy building), and to be honest, while i do believe their talent tree is rather stale, theres nothing wrong with how they affect the game.
We dont need to open them up to more players, especially at the expense of those who already enjoy them. If there is a particular design space you are looking to fill please consider an entirely new multi unit hero (Rock ‘n’ Roll Racing fleet perhaps cough cough).
Unlike say Sgt Hammer or Zeratul, who if you dont have direct counters you have no agency, TLV can be soft countered by just playing the game well, you dont need to draft a specific hero, just play well and as a team.
Would you be willing to elaborate on how you see them as negatively impacting others enjoyment?
Do you think it would be possible in the future for the devs to be more transparent on who they play?
I just think it’s cool to see who everyone mains on the dev team.
I’m probably putting words in their mouth here but when I read things like what was said I highly doubt they mean to alter the idea of controlling multiple heroes
I’m getting the vibe they’d rather make said 3 heroes more, in the same region of a map (that is to say have them work more in tandem creating reasons to have them all in the same area for team fights as an example)
creating reasons for them to not be just soak bots by giving them a bit more potency while together dosen’t sound like a bad idea to me.
also just speaking from the perspective of a player here but I can make a case that because of how adamant a viking player usually is to be split pushing even during objectives (for both reasons of being multi hero and also for the fact they aren’t as potent in the fight even together until mid to late game)
adapting to a 4v5 while the enemies have to adapt to an ungodly EXP advantage.
My thoughts exactly.
I have main heroes that either who stack quests in middle or solo lanes and mercs, i dont mind another playstyle (being soak 3 lanes)
I think he means that they force the game to play a very particular way, which can be less fun for people on the same team as TLV — people who want to just soak and play “standard”
I’ve run into this problem when picking them. You get allies who just want to sit in lane with you and do their usual thing — which leads to you getting behind and then them blaming your draft choice.
I need to have a discussion like this with the guy who reworked Whitemane. Whenever and wherever, just please tell him it’s urgent.
Also check my “The Whitemane i want to play” forum, it has a very fun talent tree.
What viking is your favorit? (in game)
I’d like to be very clear that im not trying to be difficult here, i just dont understand how any of those examples are any different or more exacerbated than other hero’s, such as our run it down specialists turned assassins, or any hero with a reset/execute mechanic, or globals, chogall… etc etc.
Hero’s should affect the battle space in different ways from eachother. That at the very core it what allows the game to play out so differently all the time. Im genuinely concerned by AZJ’s comment that they want to turn them into some weird AA assassin abomination instead of staying true to what is a truly unique design in a moba.
Thats why im asking for a bit of clarification by his comment that some people think they aren’t fun. Its ok for hero’s to be “niche” as long as its a useful/impactful niche (think rexxar’s point control).
To be fair. Even in their current state, a good TLV player will completely take over a game.
Good idea, maybe we’d get rid of those Whitememes once and for all.
Let me just rework your Zeratul real quick and we’ll talk then. I have him on level 10 btw.
If you want. My two first played heros were tassadar and zeratul in open beta : they got reworked so much they actually are at competition to see who will get reworked the most.
And while i miss old racecar tass and VP+rewind zeratul i still love the heroes (well poor tassdar got shelved because medivh came but still).
Personally I think they should take this opportunity to buff things outside Soaking like objectives or team fighting and give them a mini rework, I made a topic about it here last night, but the long and short of it was:
Merge Bribery and Mercenary Lord then tune its’ numbers down
new talents at 1 & 4 to help their sustain in exchange for some of their lane control.
large scale buffs to ‘Longboat Raid’ thus lowering 'Play Again’s pickrate from 83% and as a result this makes Objective contesting and teamfighting on vikings better
My suggestion would be this.
Instead of making them soaking heroes make them talent buffing heroes.
So instead of their advantage being away from objectives their advantage is to be around heroes to buff their type damage and support the team.
So things the vikings could buff would be attack speed, health regen, armor, attack range boost, So their Q and W’s would be buffing Not sure E but thats why you guys get paid to do this and I just post about it
so Erik might do movement speed and attack speed
Balog might boost range and mana regen
Olaf would kill the entire enemy team and make people baby rage about how bull that hero is… (wait sorry thats TFT my bad) Our olaf would give armor and health regen.
Just think about it.