Consequential Ideas on a Budget

[JeanFrancois-1217]

Matchmaking is a symptom. Dunning-Kruger is a meme.

[SirFuzzi-1601]

I’d rather be that than part of this bizarre namecalling competition of manliness that the forum has become. Given up on what? It’s a free game and I didn’t give up. Activision did. It wasn’t up to me. Or Droth… I think.

We need to stop blaming players.

[Drothvader-1215]

@SirFuzzi-1601

Or Droth… I think.

lol, it wasn’t up to me either.

[Minky-11649]

I’m going to reply one more time. You keep saying you have “amazing” ideas, that the “community and Devs are stupid” and then you expect meaningful engagement with the community and Devs you express nothing but contempt for.

I’ll put that aside. To be blunt, none of this would matter so much if your ideas were truly as innovative or as good as you claim they are. To be honest with you, none of them are new ideas that haven’t already proposed or discussed here multiple times. You argue from a place of unearned arrogance, which makes any kind of genuine discussion with you almost impossible.

Despite your claim you see potential in HOTS and you’re looking forward, you spend far more time pointing fingers at the mistakes of the past. You blame a Dev team that aren’t even involved with HOTS now. You blame a community in a disproportionate way, as if they not only have a direct influence in HOTS development, but an extensive one. If the community had influence, we would have a terrible surrender button people keep asking for.

Looking at the past will be of little help now, as the majority of the people involved with the development of the game have moved on. HOTS is also not well funded or has a large Dev team to make grand changes. It’s a sad fact, but HOTS is now considered a Blizzard Classic, alongside Diablo 2.

You can’t seem to accept, temper or adapt your ideas to where HOTS is now. You even cite the almost year old Climate Anomaly as an example the game hasn’t been abandoned, even though the Devs stated in an AMA there will be no more anomalies. Many of your suggestions and ideas (aside from already being suggested and debated) are very unlikely to be implemented due to the current resources and manpower allocated to HOTS. To be clear, the game hasn’t been abandoned, but it’s in “maintenance mode” and is considered a Blizzard classic along side games that are 20 years old. This should be always kept in mind when suggesting changes, they need to be realistic in the current environment for them to be adopted.

Again, I must stress to you and I don’t want to, that none of the ideas you have proposed in your OP haven’t already been suggested and discussed here and on the old forums multiple times. You may feel you are suggesting radical and innovative ideas, but I’m sorry they aren’t. If you don’t believe me, do a forum search of your own.

I would never suggest that just because something isn’t a new idea it shouldn’t be discussed, it should, that’s what these forums are for. The trouble comes with arrogantly stating “my ideas are the best, unique and amazing and you’re all a bunch of Blizz drones and the devs suck”, this is where your unearned arrogance diverts attention away from your ideas and that attention then falls instead to your demeanor.

I wish you well, I have tried to engage with you here in this thread as many of the ideas you have proposed I have also suggested myself over the years. I think you will find most people here share your passion for HOTS, but many of us are pragmatic enough to understand that not all these concepts can be introduced due to the current state and support of HOTS.

@Drothvader-1215

Blizzard doesn’t have the talent left to fix it, the population is too low to make it better without tanking queue times, and they squandered their chance countlessly by dismissing the problems

Most of us who have been here since launch either on the old forums, Reddit or here know this. It seems Jean simply won’t accept it and inhabits a different reality.

[SirFuzzi-1601]

Hey, I hear the best place to hide is insanity…

I don’t exactly blame him, it’s just sad when he could expend that energy on some game whose devs care about it.

[Kettu-2165]

HotS is doing…ok? At worst it’s going to be Diablo 3, at best who knows. Can we have a tl;dr, asking for a friend. Not that I’ve had half a bottle of vodka and be unable to concentrate.

[turtle-13106]

@Kettu-2165

HotS is doing…ok?

@Kettu-2165

It seems the writing is on the wall.

How the turntables turn. It’s pretty amusing no new content being announced at Blizzcon is where some draw the line. Anyway, as this is apparently the only thread on this forum where ideas are proposed with considerable thoughtfulness I’ll try to fill the gap as JeanFrancois seems to be in a time-out to contemplate his unconstructive posting sins.

Recently I’m seeing posts claiming that the game is failing to generate revenue and further limiting its development. I think focusing on heroes is smart. Being creative with how to get heroes in players’ hands at more reasonable prices serves to both accommodate players who are or would be interested in the game and to improve the chances of the game seeing more revenue. Heroes are the only content that really matters. Both the super-dynamic bundle and the rent-and-buy ideas have promise.

@JeanFrancois-1217

The loot boxes aren’t the star of the show for once; they are meant to get you looking at the Shop and waste the gold you’ve been accumulating for years (the rerolls are pretty hilarious too).

@JeanFrancois-1217

Greatly reduced the buying power of gold through its conversion rate into shards relative to shard buying power and introduced a third purchasable currency to replace gold. The point was to reduce the capacity of veteran players to obtain things through the only currency that had previously existed and they had accumulated with playtime.

These conspiracy theory parts were wrong. Apparently back in the day gold did not unlock cosmetics, with a few exceptions. So gold being at all usable for cosmetics actually favors players - veterans most of all. The HotS “2.0” changes were not a blatant attempt to milk players but they were certainly beside the point and questionable. Gems appear to also have been Blizzard’s attempt to lower prices, as they introduced a whole bunch of lower level content. Kind of silly, but that also favors players/consumers.

The map suggestions are interesting. It’s certainly true that after a while many maps start to blend into one another. Straightforward five on five fighting over a centralized objective begins to relegate differences to aesthetics. I’ve also been noticing that some maps have been made dimmer? I don’t know if this is another socially sensitive attempt on Blizzard’s part to be accommodating or not but it’s reducing the appeal and range of maps. Players should be given options to dim or should just use the gamma setting.

The reporting system issues go without saying. Something needs to be done, and at this point a reset of the penalties makes sense too. Players need to feel safe being able to voice their frustrations. The line needs to be clearly defined and enforced both ways. If now is not the time for systemic change then at minimum silences need to go back to just being silences. Present-day Blizzard’s overly-sensitive decadent culture is of course the real obstacle.

The most controversial idea here is without question the one aimed at expanding the game’s core gameplay. It may also be the key one, so it needs to be treated seriously. This game is going nowhere without empowering/challenging/rewarding players more. The progression-type power level stuff is the one area that could truly be called antithetical to this game as it biases fighting and is done by the other MOBAs. Expanding core fighting, on the other hand, should fit with the spirit of this game.

@JeanFrancois-1217

Offer a broad set of generally useful activatable short-acting powers, allow players to equip four at a time to their hero, place ultimate abilities on T, place a toggle to access the selected powers at Spacebar, assign the powers to QWER. The toggle has an 8-second cooldown after a power has been activated, each power has an individual 60-second cooldown. If Heroes of the Storm is to be the brawler among the MOBAs it needs to attempt to excel in the capacity of its heroes to brawl. Details are in the following thread.

@JeanFrancois-1217

[Mysterious Mark - Heroes realize that since entering the Nexus they have been branded. A complex symbol of some kind has been seared into them. Its numerous sections are imbued with different powers.]

Players would choose four powers out of a full set. In-game before the gates open they should be able to make adjustments as well as during drafts. I’ve come up with this set of powers:

• Basic ability cast times, intervals, and delays of any sort are reduced by 25%. Basic ability travel times are reduced by 25% [missile speed increased]. Basic ability summons move 25% faster. Lasts 10 seconds.

The intent is to quicken the application of basic ability effects, including something like the growth rate of Malfurion’s Entangling Roots. Animation may also be involved in for instance Zagara’s Infested Drop speed, which I do not see covered in the listed properties (rare).

• Effect over time aspects of basic abilities last 25% longer. Time progress toward the first extra tick of tickrate abilities is rounded up. Lasts 10 seconds, applies at the time of casting.

This refers to any effects that apply for a duration, including stuns.

• Basic ability ranges are increased by 25% for 10 seconds.

This includes both casting ranges and the length of skillshots.

• Basic ability area of effects are 25% larger. Lasts 10 seconds, applies at the time of casting.

There is sense in increasing the durations of these first few powers beyond 10 seconds.

• Basic ability cooldowns are cleared after 3 seconds.
• Basic ability cooldowns recharge 30% faster for 10 seconds.
• Dash in a direction [range 10, missile speed 18]. Can be cancelled with movement command.

Somewhat longer and faster than ETC’s Powerslide. This was intended to replace a teleport but there is an interesting version of a teleport too.

• Teleport [range 6]. After 1 second you can teleport back to the initial spot. If you haven’t done so, after 6 seconds you are teleported back to the initial spot. [Alternatively you could be unable to activate the return teleportation and would just teleport back after 6 seconds.]
• Movement speed is increased by 20% for 5 seconds.
• Gain unstoppable for 1 second.
• Gain [full] invisibility for 2 seconds not revealed by movement.

Could be made more interesting by damage taken not revealing the hero either.

• Gain a 500-point shield for 5 seconds. It scales per level [standard 4%].

Intended to be more valuable for lower HP heroes.

• Regenerate 50% of full health over 20 seconds.
• Regain 50% of full health and 50% of full mana after 6 seconds [at once]. Channeled, not cancelled by damage [considering not cancellable by the player], 20 second cooldown if interrupted.
• 20% of damage dealt is returned as health. Lasts 6 seconds.

This includes ultimate abilities. Enhancing healing seems like a good idea.

• All healing and regeneration experienced is increased by 20% for 8 seconds.

All inclusive, from allies and self effects. Was considering limiting it to from allies.

• Link yourself to an ally for 6 seconds, suffering 50% of the damage they receive instead of them.

The ranges on this one are key. At the moment I’m thinking it’s most appropriate to have a big casting range and not have the link be dependent on distance subsequently.

• Accumulate inactive armor at a rate of 1 per damage sustained equivalent to 1% of your maximum health. Apply accumulated armor at any point after 1 second up to 6 seconds when the accumulated armor is automatically applied. Armor is capped at 50 and lasts for 6 seconds.
• Healing performed on other players is increased by 25% for 8 seconds.

This one also includes ultimate abilities.

• Basic ability damage is increased by 20% for 8 seconds.
• Basic attack damage is increased by 20% for 8 seconds.
• Basic attack speed is increased by 20% for 8 seconds.
• The range of ranged basic attacks is increased by 20% for 8 seconds. Melee heroes gain charge [range 3] on their basic attacks for 6 seconds.

For melee heroes this is a stickiness power, 25% shorter than the range of Li-Ming’s teleport and 20% longer than Artanis’ Twin Blades.

• Can basic attack while moving for 6 seconds.

I don’t know if this would require considerable animation work but it’s significant.

Although this is a first draft it wasn’t thoughtlessly assembled. Traits need to be included along with basic abilities in a number of these. I believe there is a considerable degree of choice which powers to select. Decision-making and execution mid-game should improve dynamism. Counters should be inherent. The point is to challenge players more, hopefully increasing the margin for players to outwit and outperform their opponents. The presence of these powers from the beginning of games and unrestricted access is in line with the desire to focus on the core fighting experience rather than on a concept of development or progression. Only new players should have restrictions as they are learning the game, and not for long.

So we have:

1. Basic abilities application quickened
2. Basic abilities effects lasting longer
3. Basic abilities ranges extended (casting and skillshot travel distances)
4. Basic abilities areas of effect enlarged (includes cones)
5. Basic abilities cooldowns cleared
6. Basic abilities cooldowns recharge faster
7. Dash power
8. Teleport power with forced return to initial spot
9. Increased movement speed
10. Self-cleanse
11. Full invisibility not revealed by movement
12. Shield
13. Regeneration
14. Half the Hearthstone effect on the spot
15. Life-leech on damage
16. All healing and regeneration experienced increased
17. Life-link to sustain damage instead of target hero
18. Armor activation based on damage sustained
19. Healing performed increased
20. Basic ability damage increased
21. Basic attack damage increased
22. Basic attack speed increased
23. Basic attack range increased, charge to target for melee heroes
24. Basic attacking while moving

There is a large subset of these powers that should be useful to any particular hero. Traits would also have to be included in these powers I believe. The next step would be to illustrate how they would apply in specific cases. The fundamental thinking here is that:

1. Due to these powers being short-acting and activatable they present more dynamic choice and execution than the attempt the early developers made at Artifacts. There is also no serious progression component “gating” power. If anyone pulls up the design of Artifacts we could compare and contrast, consider how the gameplay effect could be different.
2. While the powers are clearly empowering and “synergistic” counters should be inherent. Gaming fundamentally works in this way.

I think the reality is it’s time to get bold. Get bold or die. The writing is on the wall as clearly as ever for this game. If its developers don’t get smart and aggressive it will indeed become another Blizzard relic. Some people are fond of Blizzard relics but time moves on. Whoever has been cast to work on this game needs to start experimenting, and not on little random Anomalies. Too much talk of passion, not much evidence of it. Some people confuse passion with preservation. That’s how one of the worst movies in the history of movies and a disgrace to its franchise happened - Star Wars Episode VII.

[JeanFrancois-1217]

After an enriching month in bronze and in close consultation with the appraisal offices of Dunning-Kruger my conclusion has been affirmed. This game is too shallow. That’s not to mean that the game is not fun or that the game does not take skill. It means that once you’re familiar with the heroes playing the game is too simple and straightforward. This can lead to boredom and irresolvable frustration. Challenge is one way to get around simplicity. Shooting games are and have been highly popular. Despite their greater simplicity, Overwatch included, they are very engaging as they push the capabilities of players and strongly reward excellence or superiority. Power appears to be another way to get around simplicity. I lack experience with the other traditional MOBAs but it seems a key part of their appeal is that they empower players. There’s a rewarding link between doing well and being stronger. They are also not as simple.

This game asks you to play it because it’s pretty, it has characters people have an attachment to, and seemingly just because it exists. Also because you’d feel better playing it than just staring at a screen or reading. The point is the game has little to no edge. That’s what’s missing. Somewhere along the way - maybe these people just aged or turnover was transformational - Blizzard started viewing games as mellow and comfortable experiences rather than as exciting and spurring experiences. The company lost its spirit and character, and the remnants of its communities are as insipid as their games. Blizzard no longer seems to understand gaming. The loss of edge manifests everywhere, including where things are counted.

As a “team brawler” the one thing I believe is antithetical to this game’s design is going down the road of stacking the fighting odds in favor of those who get ahead. My impression from the past is that the talent tiers themselves conflict with the essence of the game. So directly empowering players over their opponents is something I avoid. This leaves challenge and complexity.

I’m going to start applying the suggested powers to different heroes in trying to consider what effect that idea would have on the game (one of the cooldown powers needs to be altered). I think the other ideas are more obvious, although in this environment nothing is obvious apparently.

[turtle-13106]

@JeanFrancois-1217

Basic ability cooldowns are cleared after 3 seconds.

This is the one that needs to be changed because the lockdown and blow-up potential is too high, i.e. lack of interactability.

• Basic abilities cast within the next 4 seconds have at maximum 4-second cooldowns for their next use.

The durations of the last group of powers may need to be reduced but anyway.

By the way, the abusive chat report category may well be ravaging this game as committed players spend a lot of time on it and reports stick, with now seemingly quite few being necessary to trigger punishment. Not only have they made the category more aggressive I’ve been reading that even mild stuff by any standard upholds what are now total suspensions. Blizzard management is absolutely inept in my opinion. Completely out of touch in how to handle a potentially vital issue like this. It would appear that these people don’t have a spirit for gaming.

Does anyone know what the average age of senior people who might be making these decisions is? Have they also undergone some sort of formal recruitment process that has filled the company with meek personalities? Where’s the fire in these people?

[JeanFrancois-1217]

By the way, does no one understand the underlying point I’m making? I came back after a three-year absence. Plenty of new heroes to play. I think the developers have done a good job in expanding the tank, bruiser, and healer categories. I’m not crazy about what they’ve added to the damage category but there’s a good deal of choice.

One way I avoid being bored with this game is playing a lot of heroes. But as climbing starts to creep up as a goal and you gain experience the pool narrows while the novelty wears off. In a little over a month of playing I’m recapturing that feeling of how little I’m doing in this game, even when winning. It’s not a question of weight on the outcome but quality of play. For a game that has shaved off a lot in all areas except fighting it hasn’t pushed any boundary or norm in fighting. Eventually the shine wears off and you realize there’s not an awful lot to this game. The characters are quality as are the visuals and sounds but the gameplay is limited. Heroes of the Storm is to MOBAs what Hearthstone is to collectible card games, with MOBAs being exclusively non-physical. I don’t understand how Blizzard is content with becoming Casual Central.

[turtle-13106]

@JeanFrancois-1217

It’s not a question of weight on the outcome but quality of play. For a game that has shaved off a lot in all areas except fighting it hasn’t pushed any boundary or norm in fighting. Eventually the shine wears off and you realize there’s not an awful lot to this game.

Are there any World of Warcraft arena players here? How does that experience compare to a MOBA? Based on my experience playing PvE in that game I’ve discovered that the number of abilities in that game don’t end up achieving much due to few and fixed spell rotations. Little dynamism.

[Shakespeare-21963]

@JeanFrancois-1217

The characters are quality as are the visuals and sounds but the gameplay is limited. Heroes of the Storm is to MOBAs what Hearthstone is to collectible card games, with MOBAs being exclusively non-physical. I don’t understand how Blizzard is content with becoming Casual Central.

It’s just a giant machine designed to make you purchase gems. Making it as casual as possible with very high quality graphics and voice acting to draw as wide as possible of an audience is a good business strategy.

One problem to that plan is also accessibility: HotS is an around 20gb install. Twice the amount of league of legends and untold times more than the mobile league.

You can’t make a casual decision to install this game like you can the mobile version of lol. You have to dedicate time and a lot of disk space to this.

The game can’t be too hardcore or all those people who spent that much time and disk space installing this will just uninstall and go away. They wont buy gems.

The average gamer these days is a casual. Something we have to live with.

[JeanFrancois-1217]

…Sir, or ma’am, you have just managed to impress me.

[turtle-13106]

@Shakespeare-21963

Making it as casual as possible with very high quality graphics and voice acting to draw as wide as possible of an audience is a good business strategy.

@Shakespeare-21963

The average gamer these days is a casual. Something we have to live with.

Apparently this is false logic. The most casual game here is the least successful one and it has failed to retain a large playerbase. Indeed, I’m drawing a blank on any casual PC multiplayer game being a big success. Even a seemingly simple game like Fortnite managed to pull ahead of the pack in my opinion because building raised the skill ceiling. Usually the games with the higher ceilings are the ones that end up attracting the most players and the highest competitive interest. Casuals are trend followers, not trend setters.

@Shakespeare-21963

One problem to that plan is also accessibility: HotS is an around 20gb install. Twice the amount of league of legends and untold times more than the mobile league.

You can’t make a casual decision to install this game like you can the mobile version of lol. You have to dedicate time and a lot of disk space to this.

The game can’t be too hardcore or all those people who spent that much time and disk space installing this will just uninstall and go away. They wont buy gems.

What in the world?

[turtle-13106]

Another thing that should be done is return the level 5 hero requirement for ranked and require that at least 15 level 5 heroes are available to access the mode. Makes sense from a non-“smurf” perspective.

[turtle-13106]

I disagree. Not only are these ideas relatively easy to implement, with the notable exception of this one due to the present uncertainty about it (hence the point of discussing/developing it),

Application of Powers Gameplay Idea

In the absence of anyone, developers included, having big ideas for what to do with the game to give it a fighting chance of coming back I’ve been giving it a go on my own. One idea is particularly problematic but also particularly important. I believe that the ordinary and rather shallow gameplay of HotS is holding back its potential. I think the core gameplay needs to be expanded, and at this point cost-effectively too. Several years ago, maybe all the way back in the so-called Alpha or bef…

one of the key consequences should be making money.

As if it was needed a demonstration of temporary hero availability was just made surrounding Blizzcon. The functionality is already there. Likewise, the treasure chests are an already existing functionality for the coin purses. There are multiple currencies already in existence. Deliver silver along with gold through the coin purses, slap another currency option on the relevant hero screens, and tie temporary unlocking to it. The gold that comes with silver in the coin purses takes care of itself. The “super dynamic” bundle may require a little bit of work but it’s no titanic project.

What you’re missing is that intelligent monetization of the by far most valuable aspect of this game - heroes - can provide the resources you people keep moaning to no end about. Given that the heroes are already made and the trivial effort to improve their availability how you could possibly think these aren’t budget ideas is a mystery.

The abusive chat reporting system has gotten rid of many engaged players, as you yourself have testified with respect to your friends who have succumbed to report accumulation after playing committedly for a while. Passionate players who spend a lot of time on this game are unironically the type of players most likely to spend money on it. Give them reasonable protection and don’t be surprised if the bottom line improves.

At minimum the silence penalty should be reverted to an inability to chat (with an ability to see the chat) without playing restrictions, after a reset of abusive chat penalties. I don’t think the problem here is one of effort and budget, but one of dealing with the Blizzard numbnuts behind the scenes who can’t string together five progressive thoughts to work out how good intentions are insufficient when making these types of decisions. Fortunately we have years demonstrating the failure of these decisions, and wise people can learn from their mistakes and correct them. The reality is happy, well adjusted people don’t carry these games. Target the behavior, not the people unless you can be thoughtful. Blizzard have shown they aren’t terribly thoughtful, hence why this thread exists and the game is in the crapper despite available resources that were probably an envy of the industry.

The map ideas are not essential per se, but they do seem economical. I agree that maps promoting splitting and dynamic decisions while also forcing fighting due to their objectives (Dragon Shire is my favorite map and a very welcome break from all the go-here maps as it lets you think on your feet) improve the replayability of this game and cannot be overlooked, removed, or changed into something else.

@Minky-11649

the game is in maintenance mode

The best way to keep the game in maintenance mode is to keep writing that it’s in maintenance mode as a justification for not trying to do anything about it being in maintenance mode.

[OzymondiasKN-1893]

@Minky-11649

I agree with you that the hero roster should be more easily obtainable for new players. Many heroes haven’t received a price reduction in years or ever. If this was undertaken though, I think many cosmetics would have to go behind a paywall, the game has to generate some revenue. I’m not sure what the solution is here, but thankfully I’m not in marketing.

Think they should do it like League. Heroes can be bought through in game currencies or using loot boxes, but to get cosmetics you would need to use real money equivalent. Like RP in League which you can only buy with real money. Plus I think this will encourage the dev team to make more wild skin ideas because we’ll actually be paying for those with real money.

That being said, I don’t think simple color variations warrant a separate payment. Maybe colorations are accessible with in game currencies too.

[turtle-13106]

Heroes of the Storm doesn’t have a lack of purchasable items problem. Incremental price reductions do not solve any major problem and it’s laughable to suggest that making things more attractive for purchase results in less than “some revenue”. At least the last sentence is truthful. Heroes of the Storm has a population and players, many of whom are veterans, aren’t buying anything problem. Deep, affordable access to heroes is the best foot forward this game can put. Then it needs to survive on its merits.

[Minky-11649]

@turtle-13106

The best way to keep the game in maintenance mode is to keep writing that

It is a fact, not stated by me, but by the company. Do you honestly think that if I stopped writing that on forums that aren’t even read by the Devs that this would magically result in Blizz/Activision deciding to refund HOTS again?

You should also note (if you actually read any of my posts above) that we agree on many key points. This thread is called “consequential Ideas on a Budget”, so it’s quite fair I point out many of these ideas would be costly to implement.

[JeanFrancois-1217]

There’s nothing costly to implement the two ideas directly related to the game generating its own funding. As turtle pointed out all the components of the coin purses are evidently in the game. It’s hard to understand what technical challenge the flexible bundle could cause either. The abusive chat reporting penalty just needs to be reverted [and reset]. One idea provides affordable access to gameplay while the other protects a player’s account.

I find it incredible how difficult even the simplest things are to grasp and appreciate. The biggest concern is that the powers that be have lost their minds too.