Why won't they touch Flamewaker?

Sure, if that is okay, then so is Flamewaker.

I don’t see how he is a problem in a world in which discounting 25 mana on turn 2 perfectly okay. Oh and if you play a second copy on turn 3, that’s only 49 mana discount!

This is good design.

The amount of mana cheating is generally irrelevant to the discussion, though.
You generally regard win rates for this matter.

I can cheat out more than 30 mana by playing discolock by abusing synergies in one game…
Patches the pirate is blatant mana cheating as well.

Have you ever looked at Flow’s winrate ?

Closing in 70% win rate, which is 15% above everything else in the deck.

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There’s a big difference between having powerful swingy turns and having everything in your hand and deck reduced by 2 or 3 mana.

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Hey. It not reduces cards in your hand.

Signal number 2 that people are out of themselves.

They start to create stuff out of thin air.

And why does that matter? In the end you still lose to the mana cheating/synergies.
Is shadow essence on curve any different than flow? In practice, i argue, it is not.

???

If you play an apprentice or 2 that reduces everything in your hand by 2. And if they were already discounted by Flow, that’s 3 or 4.

I am speaking of what the deck does.

(Lekko)
aight gents, so, i thought about it some more, as FrostyDog suggested and… im still dying (nearly OTK’d my self again). but, im willing to slowly walk you through it, again. just let me know where youd like me to start.

Lekko, I never recommended anything? I was arguing against your point of it being “essentially an OTK”. I’m so confused at this point.

(Bourne)
Someone has already made suggestion on this forum to make Flamewaker trigger only on fire spells. And I think that’s the best solution. (And in flavor with the card)

That’s a good idea, I like it. Though, that wouldn’t work too well I think since there’s not a whole lot of Fire spells (at the top of my head?). Not having a fair amount that have a useful effect would make the card entirely unplayable.

(Minami)
Mozaki versions are just bad decks with a flashy finish.
But just the fact that it comes later to the game should be enough.
That to not tell that it’s a legendary so good luck drawing 1 in 30 even with all that draw.

I agree with Minami and their past point, I do think that mage should still probably be able to discount spells, it’s the class identity that uses spells, so why take that away? Flamewaker, imo, is the real problem. The minion either needs to do 1 less damage, or only do damage against enemy minions maybe. Don’t know since I haven’t considered fully how to best nerf it. Mozaki isn’t as bad as Flamewaker honestly, too. Steal their ice block usually and manage to kill them sooner. Or better, dirty rat out one of the sorcerer’s apprentice and kill it, making it just a lil bit harder. Mozaki is fair.

(BEE)
you have more time to react but it doesn’t change the fact that the ISSUE is the freaking mana discount.
Man you gold players are annoying me. You should listen to those who have knowledge.

Okay there pal, stop pulling a Lekko, chill. Way too illogical.

“maybe tomorrow you’ll come back with a fresher mindset and realize just how poor your points are”

you didnt directly suggest it but one could infer you did.
anyway, the prof is in, ready for a lesson? lets begin by closely inspecting the image below
https://i.postimg.cc/QNFzC0Yr/2021-05-09.png

forget the chip damage and let me know if you can see how the mage was OTK’d, in effect, on turn 4.
we can go from there.

you’ll be surprise how Wild is much more fun and diversify compare to standard for most meta in the last 2 years. It’s just very violent but at least you can destroy your opponent with more than 3 decks, you can list out easily 10 viable legend deck in wild, try that in standard.

So unbalanced format huh … like standard right now haha, most class are unplayable.

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Because its Wild they don’t care much about Wild. We were lucky they did something about Hysteria Combo in Wild and they probably only did so because they had something in Standard where it mattered while Hysteria was in the rotation most likely something we haven’t seen yet because its a future expansion.

Just adding my single voice to the Tiki torches-yielding mob requiring the public execution of that accursed deck. I viscerally hate going from “I hold the higher grounds on table” to “I’ve been OTKed on turn 5 and there was NOTHING I could do to prevent it, because the guy just played 20 cards straight… while I used that time to fetch a drink and made it a double.” (The worst is when you realize, when back with my drink, that your opponent still isn’t even done playing his entire deck!) About half of my matchups are now against this distastefully unnerving deck. If Blizzard doesn’t fix this mess soon (e.g. by nerfing Flamewaker to target minions only or nerf the Spell cost reduction), I am seriously considering leaving HS permanently. I started played HS since Beta and certainly lived through many meta unbalance episodes, but this is pushing it! Blizzard is just plain giving up on meta balance while still milking gamers by selling overpriced $25 ready-to-play dacks. My patience is growing very thin.

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I feel the same way. I have spent hundreds on the game trying out new builds and having a great time overall. However, something about this flamewalker deck feels wrong just like the tiller deck felt wrong. OTK at turn 5 was not exactly what I signed up for when I started investing in Wild cards. The first OTK I saw was the reno priest deck and that took the late game to pull off, so I could never be too upset about that. Even the current exodia mage requires at least turn 7-8 to pull off. I plan on taking a break from hearthstone for a while and hopeful this will be resolved when I come back. I have a masters thesis to write and I will finish my degree this summer, so I kinda have to force myself to take a break no matter what. I’ve been going hard this expansion. I’ve been legend every month in Wild since January and the highest I got up to was #64 on the Asia server with my murloc shaman deck. However, Youtubers started advertising this toxic flamewaker deck and the Wild format is now at the same low it was during the tiller nonsense. While I am happy that at RSW got a nerf, it’s not enough to stop flamewaker. The deck is just too consistent at pulling off OTK at early turns where most decks cannot react to it. I don’t want to play secret mage again because that is toxic as well. I like Wild for its diversity. Now that I can’t even get away from the flamewaker in casual mode, I am also starting to hit my breaking point. I can tolerate a lot of things, but this is where I have to speak up and let others know that legend level players are sick of it too.

IT’S. NOT. AN. OTK. EFFECT.
At this point you GOT to be trolling me, jeez. My entire point was just trying to ‘infer’ THAT ITS NOT AN OTK EFFECT. Please, at this point, just say this is a joke.

ok, i guess were going to have to take a few steps back, np.

do you understand the meaning of “in effect”?

Lekko. Please. Just stop. It’s not an OTK in effect, it’s not essentially an OTK, it is nothing like an OTK. If we’re going to play “in effect” cards, you are essentially trying to say black and white are the same colors. This is nothing at all similar to an OTK, whether it be from its effect or actions taken. Period.

I mean then you are a very lucky person. Just switch to SM and enjoy your 70% winrate, lol.

It’s essentially a tier 3 deck now. If more people will stop playing it, it will become - ironically - better, since less people are justified in playing SM.

And can still die against aggro by turn 5 or 6. Look the refreshing springwater nerf was devastating. It can still beat low skill aggro decks like murloc shaman in virtue of having a higher skill cap, but this isn’t that good of an argument if people could just play better decks like darkglare.

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im going to need you to elaborate on this

anyway, “in effect” - used to convey that something is the case in practice even if it is not formally acknowledged to be so.

in the picture example, we can see that i have 27 damage presented on board (played in 1 turn, notice the action bar) with the addition of the Loatheb battlecry, thereby locking my opponent (APM Mage) out of any possible moves on turn 5. we also see that i have a minimum of 4 damage from hand, a total of 31 damage, enough to satisfy the OTK threshold (as defined by some). so, even though it would take me a total of 2 turns to deal a minimum of 31 damage my opponent was forced to skip her turn 5 and face 31 damage or concede. thus, my opponent had effectively been OTK’d on turn 4.

but if you really want to spit hairs, how would you address established OTK decks that require multiple turns of setup before they can achieve the OTK?

Doesn’t the point you made yourself rather argue against nerfing Sorcerer"s as it would cripple far more than just one deck?

To elaborate, I mean you’re trying to compare two things that are completely different. The loatheb, I will confess, I didn’t notice. That in mind, however, there’s still a counter. The new legendary that has a 4 mana 3/3 battlecry that freezes all enemy minions. Unlikely it’s being ran in the deck, but a possibility.

And to go to the ‘spit hairs’ part, instead of having to make my point of what an OTK is again, those sorts of decks aim to have the deal damage part in one turn. The setup, in my eyes, doesn’t count towards taking away from “one turn kills”. Opponent is setting up still, yeah, but are they trying to kill just yet? No. I’m not the best for arguments, but even then you’re just grasping at air man. Please, let’s just call this here. It’s getting frustrating.