Tier lists on websites are fake/made up

And identify/execute strategies that win is a skill.

Want one example?
Quest pirate warrior in standard when it was considered viable.

The deck was irrelevant at higher ranks literally because people play better at higher ranks.

I would love to come with some Crazy difference to justify but it just not existed.

Those “try harders” are Far less likely to distort data than people commiting deckbuilding errors and in game missplays.

And Guy…
Mistakes of bronze players distort it so much that they can literally make some of the worse decks feel like some of the most insane powerhouses in the game existence that way.

Sorry to Tell those people but the true hearthstone is the hearthstone played by people who are actually trying to win.
A little harsh but true nonetheless.

I don’t think we’re on the same page here. Maybe you’re talking to someone else?

Sorry to Tell those people but the true hearthstone is the hearthstone played by people who are actually trying to win.

This is a very good point, but in the context of OP’s post we’re talking about play rate, not some idealistic sense of what a ‘true hearthstone’ is.

Moving on…

Another point I thought of is how websites like hsreplay will self-reinforce. When playrate goes up for a specific deck (because of luck or a streamer, for example), people that influence the statistics for the deck tracker (those that use hsreplay) will more likely pick the popular decks. Which are themselves chosen by what the population with the deck tracker plays.

well obviously there’s no way they are fake but sometimes they are definitely misleading. I’ve seen quite a few times people arguing that garbage classes are not that bad cause somehow a trash deck made it to tier two , or argue about some powerspikes solo shifting the entire meta around them being ok cause there somehow there’s a deck with close wr this month.
but there are multiple simple reasons this happens, there’s no way these websites don’t want their scaling to be as acurate as possible

Okay let’s talk about playrate.

People not necessarily play for only one reason and around my years in that game i did come with a theory on what the average player like to play.

Based on observation of metagame reports of last 3/4 years:

  1. Yes. People like playing with flashy effects.

  2. People hate too long games overall and this is why those popular decks in general are good against Control.

  3. Their perception of Power is limited by their lack of capacity of getting the full potential of their decks.

Item 3 is Very important because it basically gonna mean that they prefer decks with a Very high skillfloor(that you need to learn little to nothing to get a big part of it’s potential).

Rather than decks with insane powerlevel that is only obtainable at it’s skill ceiling (playing it almost perfectly).

With those 3 points you can probably even predict popular decks that aren’t that powerful if you playtest.

I don’t really have anything to add to this conversation, but just a nit-pick;
Having a low skill floor means you need little to no skill to play it.
High skill floor means the opposite.

It’s an extra valid pointer, which is why VS explicitly uses data from your opponent, and an often brought up problem with HSreplay analysis

I’m bad and like to homebrew a lot. I still use deck tracker to help me keep track of my hand size and what’s left in my deck. It isn’t necessarily a symptom of tryharding.

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I just want to describe how Vicious Syndicate and HSReplay collect data. Because there have been some claims in this thread that the collection is biased.

HSReplay

What HSReplay does is it allows people to download a program that records data. This program has algorithms that (try to) identify both the recorder’s deck archetype and their opponent’s, then saves winrate data from the recorder’s point of view. It counts both recorder and opponent archetype towards popularity.

This method of data collection is roughly accurate, but it has flaws. Recorders win more on average than a random sample of Hearthstone players, particularly at lower ranks — so winrates as displayed on HSReplay are higher than they actually are, especially at low ranks. This can be extremely misleading for people who visit the site without purchasing a subscription, as the only free rank filter is Bronze through Gold — in other words, the free Standard data is of little value at best, and misleads viewers into fits of rage at worst. At higher ranks — which require a subscription to be viewed — this warping effect is reduced as the average opponent’s skill comes closer to equalling (or perhaps exceeding) the average recorder’s.

Additionally, because the recorders are half of the games and the recorders are not a random sample of deck archetypes, the results are slightly skewed by their deck selection.

It’s possible for paying customers to be misled as well. Paid filters allow viewers to narrow data down to the past 24 hours, or to the past 3 days, in addition to the standard time filters of 7 days and since the most recent expansion or balanced patch. In particular the 1 day filter can have misleading results, reducing sample size to the point where this archetype or that can have one particularly lucky or unlucky day and seem considerably better or worse than it actually is. This is further compounded by the flaws described above.

The main advantage of HSReplay is that it updates continuously with a 7 day filter.

VS Data Reaper numbered reports

Vicious Syndicate created a process that circumvents the key flaws of the HSReplay process described above. VS only uses one piece of data from its recorder’s side of recorded matches — the winrate of their deck archetype specifically in the matchup against the opponent’s archetype, also known as matchup winrate. VS only uses opponent archetype, not recorder archetype, in determining archetype popularity — so if recorders queue against random opponents, that should be a random sample. Furthermore, instead of counting winrates directly from recorded matchups, they calculate “expected winrate” indirectly by taking all of the matchup winrates and using a weighted average weighed by archetype popularity to estimate overall deck winrates.

The VS data collection method is overall far more accurate than HSReplay. It doesn’t inflate winrates as much because the recorders aren’t overrepresented as much. It presents an almost flawless depiction of the popularity of archetypes. VS Data Reaper numbered reports cover roughly 7 days (often starting roughly 8 or 9 days before report publication), so they cover a good sample size. These numbered reports are basically the statistical gold standard.

The main disadvantage of VS numbered reports is that, being carefully curated, they are not continuously updated.

If VS numbered reports have a second flaw, it’s editorializing. The authors add explanations of the data that can exaggerate or understate the truth within the numbers themselves. In the vast majority of cases these exaggerations are quite slight, but it’s common to see third parties quote them and then exaggerate their points a little bit further, and so on, like a game of “telephone.” I’ve often seen untruths about the meta perpetuated based not off the numbers, but the words of the VS team. However, the raw data is impeccable.

VS Data Reaper Live

VS also has a live reporting option. Data Reaper Live reports according to the last 24 hours of data collected, using the same basic statistical standards described above. However, for calculation simplicity, it only uses the top 15 archetypes, and because it runs off estimated winrate this means that decks that aren’t in the top tiers don’t have their results factor into the winrates of the top 15 decks at all.

Furthermore, Data Reaper Live inherits archetype definitions from the Data Reaper numbered reports, instead of the other way around. Because these archetype definitions are not quickly updated by the VS team following a new expansion or miniset, Data Reaper Live tends to use outdated archetype definitions from the previous meta in trying to identify decks until the first numbered report comes out. This essentially makes data unusable during that timeframe.

Even under the best of conditions, VS Data Reaper Live data is deeply flawed for the purposes of balance change discussion. It’s based off just the past day, which makes it just as vulnerable as the 1 day filter on HSReplay to the coincidence of archetypes having lucky or unlucky days. And unless the meta is particularly un-diverse, only considering the top 15 archetypes in calculating estimated winrate can lead to misleading results — for example, at the beginning of Alterac, more than a third of the meta was decks not in the top 15.

In my opinion, Data Reaper Live is almost worthless, ranking below a properly filtered HSReplay. It may have some narrow utility if one specifically wants to know today’s metagame as opposed to yesterday’s — and it is better (and cheaper) than HSReplay’s 1 day filter, if that’s one’s aim, particularly at top Legend where archetype diversity tends to suffer. But it’s all but useless at describing a metagame as a relatively static entity, particularly at lower ranks. It’s the equivalent of day trading stocks instead of analysis of overall market trends.

I hope this wall of text proves enlightening to someone. Also, thanks to RidiculousHat for generously giving his time to clarifying many details of VS processes, and apologies if I got any part off.

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It did, at least me.
Thanks for this input and the work you had with it.

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I mostly agree with you, but, it’s funny how almost all of the grandmasters in the tournament this weekend brought pirate warrior. Last weekend also. idk. I just can’t make sense of it…

[quote=“Scr0tieMcB-1291, post:49, topic:82350”]
VS only uses one piece of data from its recorders
[/quot

I just have a question. Does VS have a deck tracker?

I totally agree: why my 100% winrate octasari hunter isn’t in the tier1 list?

[quote=“tilano-1877, post:52, topic:82350, full:true”]

VS gets data from both the HSReplay deck tracker and the Firestone deck trackers.

Also, claiming that they only use a single item from recorded matches is completely false.

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Because it only played one match.

:clown_face:

I kinda got the joke but it’s always fun to make the 1 Win= 100% joke.

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before edit content

What I meant by that is that they don’t use the recorder’s deck archetype for population, and they don’t count the recorder’s winrate directly towards the overall winrate of the recorder’s deck archetype. They do use the result of the recorder’s game towards matchup winrate, which I was calling a single item. But you could break that down into components like win-or-not and recorder’s archetype (and opponent’s archetype, although that’s random), and make it into more than one thing. The overall archetype winrate is mathematically derived entirety from population and matchup winrate data — VS calls this “expected winrate” and they’ve written on how it’s superior to “actual winrate.”

But your argument is trivial at best here — it’s as if I said “the one thing I ate was a hot dog” and then you reply “nay nay, good sir; you ate a hot dog and a hot dog bun.” What I said is not completely false. It’s mostly true.

Edit: oh, after typing all that out I realize you misread me. It is indeed false that only one piece of data is taken from recorded matches, but that’s not at all what I was saying. I was saying it only takes one piece of data from the recorder’s side of recorded matches. Almost all the data collection is from the recorder’s opponent. I will edit the original to make it clearer though, because it’s possible to understand the word “recorder” is being a program instead of a person when that wasn’t my intention.

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They’re reference and require you to both play the game and know how to play matchups.

In other words they’re only useful for competent players.

That’s not evidence that no one does.

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Aye, it came across way different to me.

Very true! They do this as an effort to help combat sampling bias. They still get a very robust dataset overall in terms of things like deck/card popularity, winrates of cards, etc.

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Does VS even post card winrates? I have never seen it unless they’re discussing a single specific card in their editorializing.

They don’t post them like HSR does, but ZachO can see (and sometimes gives insight on the Discord or podcast, etc) how specific cards impact decks’ winrates and why he chooses certain builds to publish instead of the uber-popular ones on other metadata sites.

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