I have to reference mage to argue points. It’s what I know.
And Denathrius is flatly too good, as is theo.
When bad players can use both cards to boost their win rates (and they do) then the cards need nerfed.
You think a deck running Denathrius can afford to spend 10 mana on “healing” or a “big body” after holding this card in hand for 6 or so turns?
Mats this isn’t 2018 hearthstone. There’s removal EVERYWHERE. Priest will remove a denathrius for 1 mana with The light it burns. Paladin will turn it into a 1/1 and give 9/9 stats for something in hand.
Decks can’t afford to run 10 mana cards, especially ten mana cards that have to sit in hand 80% of an average game length (about 8.5 turns now, Denathrius sits in hand an average of 5-6 turns) if it’s not gonna win games.
If your opponent just slammed a 10 mana denathrius infused they threw away a win con in the trash, unless they know for a fact you have no removal at all in hand.
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Mana Wyrm getting nerfed wasn’t an isolated incident.
Shortly after they nerfed Cold Blood, Preparation, Wild Growth, Nourish, and Equality. It was a move precipitated by having weak expansions, so everyone packed their decks with old cards and ignored the newer cards.
I don’t understand why you lump the Mana Wyrm nerf with every other nerf. Different cards are nerfed for different reasons.
Nerfing Denathrius, a card from the latest expansion, is the complete opposite.
Mana Wyrm was complained about as winning games from turn one snowballs.
Denathrius is also capable of winning games just by being played, as is Theo.
And,
Denathrius isn’t a finisher. It’s a table flip, as is Theo.
That’s my comparison.
Anything with the capability to undo all that has gone before is too good.
“I got outplayed from turn 1 until turn 9, but that does not matter, 'cause I played Denathrius and so I win.”
This language is a very inaccurate appeal to emotion.
Here’s a more accurate picture.
In Spooky Mage, Denathrius has the sixth from the bottom drawn win rate; and the top played win rate.
That’s exactly the profile of a finisher.
Feel free to disagree and correct me. With specific, technical language that explains what we can expect from cards that are finishers, how Denathrius differs from them, and which sort of cards is Denathrius more akin to.
So what happens is that the opponent doesn’t see when Denathrius is stuck in hand and they win. They just see it when played against them and they get an inaccurate picture of how good he is.
Why is it that every argument I made using data to defend mage was discredited with “feels bad”, yet in this instance suddenly win rates matter?
A significant portion of players hate both cards, as well as Jailer.
They are the textbook definition of: “feels bad” as well as “overtuned.”
Both theo and denathrius are good enough to bolster the win rates of mediocre players.
That should never be allowed in a game that claims to strive for balance.
You can’t prove this mate.
And even if you could, the same would apply to every card in every deck over 50% draw winrate
I daresay I can provide enough instances to strongly suggest what I say is true, if I felt like it, and I feel like you know that too.
When bad players can win games they should lose, just by playing these cards, then they are too good.
What data?
You almost never use any data for any arguments.
I have. Plenty of times, for several mage decks over the years, only to be told by the players here that they: “felt bad” to lose to, and so win rates did not matter. Or; that they were played too much, and so, win rates did not matter.
This Forum is an object lesson in hypocrisy.
Denathrius requires significant investment on the part of the player using it. Like yes, it can absolutely end the game very quickly, very suddenly.
But we’re talking about a turn 10+ power play. There should be more cards which decidedly end the game at that point.
It’s pretty subjective, but Denathrius doesn’t “feel bad” in the same way that a deck that just endlessly cycles turtles into your hand while stalling does.
He’s a big swingy power play. He’s no worse than like… a roaring torch or the priest questline. I guess you could say he’s comparable to the Mage questline, maybe. And without cram session and all the other excessive draw tools that deck probably isn’t excessive anymore either. But Questlines just have a really awful reputation and are REALLY unpopular.
Denathrius isn’t nearly as hated as far as I can see.
And they already nerfed multiple cards in every deck that runs Denathrius.
With Mana Wyrm, they didn’t nerf multiple cards in that deck, in the same expansion.
What you are doing right now is more like if people were asking for a Stargazer Luna nerf after, since that was also a good card that didn’t get nerfed together with Mana Wyrm.
I think plenty of players disagree.
I was actually thinking of Pocket Galaxy, which was five, then seven, then five, and yet never six… But even PG didn’t just win the game.
You still had to play what it drew.
That’s not right.
LPG started at 7. It went to 5 during the Rise of the Mechs event, June 2019. Then got nerfed back to 7 again two months later in August.
LPG was not included in the deck that used Mana Wyrm in August 2018, and was considered a meme at that time.
Stargazer Luna was a part of that deck.
you’re right. seven/five /seven.
My mistake.
I still remain against Denathrius. I have watched players lose to this card, even though they played better than their opponent consistently until turn ten.
The card simply undoes everything that has gone before.
It’s like Mordresh and Reno had a baby.
I think it’s stupid, and I refuse to play it or Theo, for the same reason.
Unless they know you have no removal in hand? You mean like implock or any other aggro deck that still manages to win thanks to Denathrius EVEN IF you had perfect answers to their onslaught?
Bottom line, Aggro decks should not be able to pull out an IWIN card as soon as they run out of steam. If you beat their horde, you should win. Anything that negates that is bad design.
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I tend to agree. If aggro decks don’t have the chance of running out of gas, then there is no point.
Aggro has always been obnoxiously overturned in HS from near the start. Its mind blowing that with Sir D they basically handed aggro players an “I win” cards incase their already cheap skilless assault failed. Its like they identified the games most toxic, I just want to win players who dont care about having an actual match and said “heres some candy, we need to make sure you always get your baby win”.
No one has shown any interest when I mentioned it previously, but I seriously would love for some of us to create a “league” where we ban cards that shouldnt exist. It cant be perfect since obviously a large group wont be able to 100% agree. But even just having access to HS again without Sir D, Theotar, Purified Shard or certain other baby cards id be thrilled. Even if our group didnt vote out all the cards I hate, just to get rid of a few cards that only exist for the baby netdecker I just want to win crowd…that would be heavenly.
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It could be argued that by not killing the other player by turn 10. The other player has played better because he did not die.
The interesting thing Is that curse/imp lock has pretty much replaced imp lock with sire.
So a whole lot of warlock players believe that curses are better then sire.
whenever you get denathrius played agaisnt you
you got outplayed not him
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