Shaku, The Collector (One of my favourite cards actually) was only used because Rogues’ class cards was absolutely bad, except a few, had to relieve on the Neutral Water Package (Pirate + Murloc) package for MONTHS, as one of the few good decks. (I’m not counting the abomination of Quest Rogue.)
He gave you in most cases, ONE card and by the chance of luck, you might get something that wasn’t Totemic Might.
Again, Vicious Fledgelig is a Snowball, because It can win a game by itself and can become harder and harder to take down. Hamaar does not become more powerful, nor, can he win by himself. In most case situations, dropping a Hamaar at turn 2 or 1, is stupid as hell.
If you get bamboozle, he’d most likely turns into another minion next turn and then you pray your 5-drop minion doesn’t suck. One gives you a poison minion but that doesn’t stop the opponent from killing him with a spell or another way and one that draws you 2 cards, which for me, is value enough early game.
By that Logic, Phase Stalker should also be able to snowball the game, since he’s cheating out secrets for you, while dealing damage and thinning your deck.
Also, you can at max get 5 secrets out in one turn… earliest as turn 5, if you only pi ck paladin secrets and Hamaar sticks from the round before.
I can easily understand that’d he can be annoying when he gives your opponent counterspell at the right moment for that Plague or Death etc. but he… is… one… card… you have to draw him, play or make him stick and then play secrets, and pray that you get another good one.
Untrue. You do know Secret Paladin was considered a Tier 0 deck, right? So much so it was great when it came back into the meta. You made an awful comparison.
This has nothing to do with what I like. I argued facts, you didn’t try and compare them and spun it the way you wanted it to be.
You don’t have to agree with me and quite honestly, I don’t care.
You got a debate in the Guild, and you left it, so what difference does it make. Regardless, I’ll answer you.
This doesn’t hold up in my opinion. Cards also have a factor of how they are to play against. Yes, I’m going to make another CC case here. The highroll potential is strong enough to where it isn’t fun to play against. My argument was it was inherently bad design from the start. Just because you don’t see anything particular on average (while decks ran by pros have considerably higher winrates when they mulligan it on 2, 65%+) doesn’t nessecarily make it an okay card.
Pure winrates sometimes aren’t good ideas to look at because of this and 100% relying on statistics to prove a point may not always hold up.
Hanar snowballs far quicker than Mana Wyrm.
And that’s a bad design. Making it stick and going to lengths to do so don’t make it okay. If you’ve read the title, the design is bad in comparison to Miscreant, which oddly, most people around this thread just completely ignore my argument with, which I believe still holds considerable water when compared.
I really love the card just because it makes the game more interesting and there are limitations. For example if you pick the secets that are hard to trigger the effect isn’t even all that great because you’re limited to five. And if the opponent plays around them (which of course isn’t easy of course) it might not have a great impact.
I played him basically as my wincondition shuffling a ton into my deck with Togwaggle’s Scheme. But very often he doesn’t even get removed and just playing secrets every turn actually isn’t all that great for the most part.
Nevertheless as a support card that is so sticky early it still is quite powerful. I was really surprized to see that statline on him. Of course it makes sense but indeed rather powerful for such an “infinite value” card.
I really like those cards just because I like card generation. We also had Underbelly Angler as a 2 mana 2/3 murloc that gives you a murloc everytime you play a murloc. And just from Ashes of Outland as well we have the Sethekk Veilweaver that as a 2 mana 2/3 gives a Priest spell everytime you target a minion with a spell. I really like those cards because you can just play them early on but later on they can even generate more value to keep the game interesting. Are they also too strong?
Now with SJH he has 5 health which is really a lot. But he also 1 attack which generally is much worse than that two health more. And if you just chain secrets together he on it’s own isn’t all that strong.
From my experience it sometimes really works out amazingly and the opponent not playing around all the secrets litterally can give you the win. But it also sometimes really just doesn’t go anywhere especially if they don’t trigger many secrets and you can’t do much else.
So when it comes to him as a wincondition I don’t think it’s too overpowered. But generally speaking it when you use him in the right moment as kind of a disruption tool to annoy the opponent it might be extremely powerful especially very early on. So maybe a small nerf might actually be appropriate. Since I rarely use him without shuffling a ton of backup as my wincondition into my deck I can’t really tell though.
So a (legendary) minion card that has enough health to have a good chance to survive the next turn after being played as early as it can (without the Coin) to get any real value out of it is bad “design” to you?
Okay!
I assume you’re referring to pre-nerfed Mana Wyrm. Well, here’s my response to that; Pffft BHAAAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHHH!!!
Simple; we, or at least -I- ignore that comparison, because EVIL Miscreant is a COMMON card while Hanar is a LEGENDARY. And Legendary minions usually tend to have better than your average stats.
This playstyle is the problem. I’m gonna keep doing this same thing over and over again until I win, or he kills me…
Personally I think That particular archetype should be discarded as a viable and “fun” play option because its anything but. Oh look…he’s playing Tog-Scheme…great I’m gonna hafta kill 6 more Hanars…Team 5 should stop designing cards that make copies of cards and shuffle them into your deck. We should not have to continually deal with infinite recursions that make games drag on from what used to be a 10-15 minute affair into a 45min to 1 hour game of doing the same thing. I was ok with a little bit of this playstyle… e.g. Gang up and such, but its kinda like you had a good joke and just kept telling it over and over and over again until noone wanted to hear it anymore.
That playstyle is just Rez Priest wearing a different costume.
The Mana Wyrm gained significant snowball ability with the last few expansions actually so comparing them before/after nerf really doesn’t give you relevant data, considering the spell selections you have to use with him today are MUCH different than back then. Today we have Twinspell, many “discover a spell” cards that are dirt cheap, and Mana cheating going on at an unprecedented level vs back then.
Evil Miscreant was also considered overstatted for its time in the spotlight hence the reason he caught a nerf to his statline. I think Hanars ability is already powerful enough to justify his legend status, he doesn’t need to be overstatted for his mana cost as well.
…so? Was any of the cards in secret pally nerfed? No.
What you (or your friends or whichever site or HS celebrities) “consider” is just your feelings, not facts.
Untrue. You’re arguing on what everybody “considers” to be broken. Those are just your feelings, with a dash of appealing to popularity (quote unquote everybody considered secret pally to be OP)
The fact is for all the screaming people did, the cards in secret pally were not nerfed.
Of course I don’t have to agree with you. Nobody has to agree with you. I’m just advising you it’s to your benefit that you try to convince other people to agree with you.
See, if nobody (particularly Bliz) doesn’t agree with you, you aren’t gonna get those nerfs you want.
It IS rather interesting that Rogue, who’s known for tempo, has a value minion that’s statted in such a way that it’s likely to live long enough to get more than one pop of value from it while Priest who’s supposed to be about value was given two value generating minions that are statted in such a way that they tend to die right after they are played…
Well, sometimes you only shuffle a few into your deck. But in general that’s the idea, because otherwise the “meme” of the deck is gone for me. I just really like Discover and such. And with that it certainly isn’t “the same” over and over again also for that matter. Especially in wild (which I mainly play) there are a lot of secrets to play around.
But I do admit that sometimes shuffling so many really powerful cards can become problematic. The most obvious example is N’Zoth in a Deathrattle deck. It’s just way to powerful if the Rogue manages to shuffle like 20 or so into his deck. So the shuffling mechanic can be problematic. But with SJH I don’t think it’s that bad.
As I said sometimes the opponent doesn’t activate many secrets and you can’t even take much advantage out of him. And if you’re then only topdecking him it’s not great at all. Also you would get way too many secrets if you have more than one SJH on the board. One game my hand got way too flooded with secrets and SJH. The card really has its limitations and is not as oppressive as shuffling N’Zoth for example.
It also really depends on what you want from the game. And I can see you don’t like this “infinite recursions”. On the other hand you then have people like me who really love that infinite value and having fun just playing the game. I don’t really care much if I win. I only want to have fun playing cards.
This is really the reason why we need much more game modes. At best they would allow for custom game modes. Because I really see this so often. I don’t enjoy these short 5-10 minute games much because it’s like “well, the game barely even started…” etc. But of course I understand other people like you. And there should be a faster game mode for people like you. I’m really exciting about potentially many new game modes. At least that’s what I hope for.
But they aren’t because the Class identity they have for rogue is “They may be sneaky and nimble, but they lack strong defenses and regeneration, forcing them to act quickly to incapacitate an opponent. Their innate ability to generate, draw, and burgle cards allows them to build up and execute on many synergies.” Tog’s Scheme is simply a way to generate cards.
Rubinlibelle is correct, it is a fun way to play but the shuffle/quest/secret rogue decks generally have low win rates because getting Hanar, a secret and Tog’s Scheme (with more than a charge or 2) in your hand, ready to play, without being dead the next turn is not an easy task. But when it wins, it is a thing of beauty.
I just got out of a game against an albatross priest where I must have cycled at least 15 secrets before the poor guy managed to kill it. That paladin secret that brings back a dead minion, shadowstep, and counterspell secrets just kept my Hanar on the board until it outmeme’d a Graverune Albatross priest. It was hilarious and I wish I had a replay of the game.
This just happened to me at Platinum 5, I was playing around with Spell Mage when SHJ was able to “Christmas tree” on me twice before I was able to clear him. The secrets he offers gives him quite a fair amount of protection and it doesn’t take a real genius to hit the hide button and analyze your board state to figure out which secret is the best for you.
Leave my Hanar alone! There is worse cards out there. He’s only on the board for 1 turn (if that!) and you can only have 5 secrets current at one time and maybe another generated 1 in the hand that you couldn’t play anyway.
I can understand the frustration playing against it but it’ll be an unfortunate Legendary card if it didn’t have an unlike power. Comparing it to Grand Lackey Erkh, another card with great power but is limited to what it can do when creating massive damage. It can fill up your board with Lackeys but it won’t do much which is why it receives nearly no play. SJH 2/1/5 sounds broken but it’s 1 attack. Only way it can be super effective is if the other player already has no board late game or it’s played on turn 1 with coin or turn 2. For the most part, people go all in trying to kill it which creates time for rogue to actually build because Rogue isn’t known for board clears. Getting a secret from a Legendary card that fits the style of Rogue and creates the unexpected feeling fits IMO. I remember playing SJH and had the paladin secret which Resurrected the card which is Intense BUT I think people forget that individuals play SJH and only secrets for a turn. So you’re up against a 1/5 and 5 secrets… assuming they don’t have a board already. Honestly, all depends on experience. I had my fair share with the card and see it as one of the cards that will always be an instant target and should be and that’s usually always the case when it comes to legendary cards.
