George, I appreciate you understanding one of my points.
“Targeted” or “Specific Use” in your words same thing, vs “Universal”.
A targeted card fairly should beat some universal card if that targeted card’s ideal target is that universal card. However, if devs want the rulebook to let CS win, so be it. CS winning is not the big demon here going on if they have to have it this way, fairness or not. The mana cost is a big deal.
Ok so i’ll try to keep this concise, as much as id love to elaborate the significance of some of the points.
Flare sucks (seriously, it really does) in BOTH it’s “Success Case” and “Fail Case”.
Flare’s Success Case:
Beating Paladin Secrets (fair for 2 mana)
Beating Rogue Secrets (fair for 2 mana, yea nobody plays them, still)
Beating Rexxar Secrets (fair for 2 mana, since Emerald Stone retains the 2 3/3s)
Beating Mage Secrets (totally not even possible, because of Counterspell).
Does this help outline “the best case” for Flare?
Nobody plays Rogue secrets so get that out of the way, nor would Flare matter in that Big Rogue matchup or what have you.
Paladin’s secrets sure destroy them for 2, working as intended, and common enough to possibly warrant a deck slot for Flare, fringe success odds at best.
Rexxar secrets - ok now this is worthy of a counter card since Rexxar cannot draw that well at all, SO, everyone resorts to Sub 9. Yes, rex draws best for aggro via Mech and Tracking, or Call and Tracking and a deck of Beasts only, but for those trying something different it’s Sub 9 and secrets. The tradeoff is 2 3/3’s get by with Emerald, so there’s a kickback to your opponent after Flare succeeds. This is why it’s fair at 2 mana and not OP vs Rexxar’s own secrets.
Mage Secrets - not a lot has to be said, Counterspell is always ran, possibly discovered, and just dominates Flare and thus the match.
So the best case for Flare is a Rexxar, Paladin, or Rogue secret-welding opponent WHILE Flare is drawn and in hand by Rexxar. Quite a lof of ‘maybes’ have to be checked for this to even happen, especially your opponent playing secrets in one of those classes, Rex being the most common for Wild by far of those 3. Lets say you want Flare in hand early? Good luck, you’re rexxar. I mean tracking, but then your deck can’t be combo. So you’re better off highlander, secret, or aggro. See the problem here? Rexxar has no freedom, just restricted draw, and it’s one non-restricted draw Flare, is nerfed.
Flare’s “Success Case” is not great, that’s the point to illustrate. The most common secret opponent, by 1/2 marathon, is Mage, and Flare has no business defending against Jaina.
How about Flare’s “Fail Case”?
2 mana - develop nothing - draw 1.
This is the bigger of the 2 problems with the card.
Class cards should be > power than neutral of the same cost and effect right?
Novice - 2 mana - 1/1 - draw.
Flare - 2 mana - 0/0 - draw. Novice is completely better, as it’s not like Rexxar has like synergy with spell outside of Lock n Load or something off the wall that is underpowered on it’s own.
So Flare’s best case is condition-heavy - no Mage opponent (since CS trumps the match), + be facing a Rex / Uther / Valeera with secrets, and yes the unreliable condition of a secret-mage that doesn’t have CS up yet - it DOES happen, less often than CS being up obviously.
Flare’s worst case is tempo-destroying, value-weak.
It’s 2 mana do nothing draw.
Again, you have to factor in Rexxar as a class can’t pre-draw to find a flare, outside of a lucky tracking, and thus a deck not-built-for combo, to where you are better off running aggro like everyone with Rex understandably does anyway. Or, you could run Highlander, which has nothing to do with omitting Flare, it’s just that Flare is so underpowered it’s not worthy of a Highlander inclusion since value matters so much w High.
Brings me to my final point and what George said.
Should a targeted card succeed/win vs a universal card?
No, it should not, but if devs want it this way, meaning Counterspell beats Flare, don’t DOUBLE punish Flare by having it’s mana cost 2.
I think the basis for the Flare nerf was old-times HS. Surely Ice Block had something to do with it then, lack of generation, lack of draw across the board for all classes. A secret was a major investment back then compared to now, so they figured Flare was OP at 1, when it’s totally underpowered at 2.
Last but not least
Eater of Secrets vs Flare (Credit Wardrum, solid contribution earlier, thx).
Fail Case
Eater is a 2/4 for 4 - game losing right there.
Flare is 2 mana draw 1 do nothing - game losing right there.
Both fail cases are bad, i’d rather have draw 1 over a 2/4 on turn 4 (or worse, after).
So yes for specifically targeting secret mage ofc EoS is stronger.
I’m talking about Flare’s Fail Case.
Where Flare is obviously better, but yet weaker than something like a neutral (and nerfed if you recall) Novice.
Like nerfed-novice > nerfed Flare in the fail case.
Say a warlock opponent.
See how bad this is? Nerfed Novice > Nerfed Flare. Like by a 1/1 stat line, and nobody runs Novice but OTK and Shark Valeera because of how underpowered it is. Now, imagine getting denied that 1/1. Enter Flare…
So i’m going to say thanks for reading all this if anyone did, I hope you see where I am coming from.
My request would be to buff Flare to 1 mana, and let Counterspell have it’s way, and if Secret Mage is such a problem (like it is in Wild obviously and clearly RN) then yes like War has said Eater’s the way for just that matchup…
And guess what would pair nicely with a Eater-teched Rexxar?
a 1 cost, not game losing Flare to find that Eater / your 2 cost / anything since 1 mana cards are way easier to play out than 2 cost.
Flare’s fail case should be the way the card is eval’d.
2 mana draw 1 is really bad (and literally do nothing else, not even a 1/1, we don’t have flamewaker or so, etc) and should be adjusted to not be this awful card you only want to run 1 of bc of how underpowered it is at 2 mana. This is my main point.
By the way, Flare’s bonus is that it’s draw is
not combo busting
not really combo assembling, since it’s only draw 1, which is way weaker than draw 2 for 1 card, or discover like visions obviously, or discover AND discount like Glpyh.
But Flares draw is FREE. meaning open. meaning it’s not restricted to “only run beasts for Master’s Call” or “Run some mechs for Ursatron” or “don’t run combo/s for Tracking”. a 1 for 1, not restricted draw would slightly open up deckbuilding in rexxar. Does this make sense? Where as a 2 for 1 is too tempo losing to equal out.
FWIW - im also a proponent that Shiv gets back to 1 for the same reason - 1 for 1 draw isn’t op where it busts the game - it’s strong enough to want to include, but doesn’t get you so much value you win from it. In the old days sure, but now adays draw 1 for 1 isn’t game breaking. Keep in mind, Priests summon a whatever behemoth they want for like 4 or 2 mana usually…just to keep things how they really are.
Thanks