We are pretty happy that almost every build can do Torment 1

PC General Discussion
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I think Colin made this statement in the previous campfire chat. I really do like the dude but I find a lot of problems with this statement.

The similar statement said by the other Dev, how they seem pretty happy about where the original 5 classes power level seems to be in relative to what they are aiming for is also worrisome.

First, let me break down Colin comment on the state of torment 1 and how that statement is worrisome.

Torment 1 , while Colin may be right - “almost every build” I would take that implies home brew build or practically anyone that wanna come up with anything can do torment 1. You SHOULD not be happy with that state, why ?

Well It is simple, while it is true “EVERYTHING” can drop in torment 1, the drop rate and efficiency is so bad and terrible that anyone who may have torment 1 on farm, will not enjoy doing it. It is so unrewarding compare to higher torment levels, what makes you think your player willing to stick around just farming torment 1 ? “while you keeps saying everything can drop” ?

No one cares everything “CAN” drop, people only care if it “WILL” drop. Knowing how terrible the drop rates are in Torment 1, you really believe that making torment 1 the most accessible tier is “ENOUGH” to keep these players playing ?

Now, let us address the other dev comment about 5 class power being “appropriate” in their mind.

After this season, we have had a taste of the SB power. Although it is bugged, but it was a lot of fun. You pretty much let all your player base had a strong taste of how crappy, and underpowered the other 5 classes are. And now you have said the other 5 classes are doing good ?

If this is the power level of the classes you have in mind as devs - meaning we cannot even level our glyphs to 100, because other 5 classes (majority of the player base) are hard stuck on pit 80-100 (outliers streamers doing 100-120) , your current glyph penalty effectively will hard cap most players glyph at around 85-90 at max.

Is this really what you guys think is “good” spot ?

We really need more end games to grind and to “Grow” our powers if you have a ceiling set so high. Because currently, you are making sure everyone have accessible to torment 1, which is good, but this should definitely not something you guys should be happy with. Because you won’t keep many players playing if torment 1 is the baseline that you want to ensure your players to achieve.

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Lol wtf is this statement…
Every build should be able to do torment 4.
It can’t be serious that torment 1 is the goal for all builds.

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Torment 1 , while Colin may be right - “almost every build” I would take that implies home brew build or practically anyone that wanna come up with anything can do torment 1. You SHOULD not be happy with that state, why ? Well It is simple, while it is true “EVERYTHING” can drop in torment 1, the drop rate and efficiency is so bad and terrible that anyone who may have torment 1 on farm, will not enjoy doing it. It is so unrewarding compare to higher torment levels, what makes you think your player willing to stick around just farming torment 1 ? “while you keeps saying everything can drop” ?

You’re not incorrect but the people who don’t have those ambitions won’t feel this perceived slight. One of the problems with forums in general is that the population of them is comprised usually of people who are more invested rather than less so the preoccupations of these people don’t match those of the silent and absent.

The guy who wants to just kill a vampire lord on his day off and see what he gets is not hunting aggressively for the Shroud of False Death like some other players are. In many cases they don’t have guides, don’t read patch notes, and honestly have no idea it exists. They do not care. These are people you are concerned about but your concern for them is misplaced. They’re happy.

I mean, don’t get me wrong, I welcome the sentiment of caring for other’s game experience, but you also have to do your best to consider what that looks like for them.

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I know right ? that is why When i heard that from Colin, I was very confused…

Maybe that is also why we have so many bad builds and devs just could care less about buffing any of them or make more skills, Uniques enables more powerful build… instead, just leave it all in dust and have 1 or 2 viable S tier build that can farm torment 4 and call it a day.

SB is outlier in this season, but comes S7 I only really expect 1 or 2 S tier build from SB as well.

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This is what you get when you try to build a game for everyone.

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True, I mean I guess it is good that D4 devs have the ambition and will to make a game that capture as many type of player base as possible. But that also comes with significant challenges for that.

While nothing can be made to perfection - I think there is a lot of room to improve here still in current state of the game regarding class balance VS content tier rewards

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No. Here’s what I think should constitute a good spot. It’s not just one element:

  • All sub par builds can do Torment 1
  • Those who invest in reasonable builds should be able to do Torment 4
  • Meta builds can do the hardest content
  • Each class should have at least one meta build
  • There is at least one flavor of the month meta and not one bug of the month meta.
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This would for sure be better than what we have right now . To add, I feel like they should also give torment 1 rewards a bit of a bump, so people aren’t feeling too miserable to stay on Torment 1

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I think the rewards should encourage these players to move and help them go to higher Torments.

I guess even now that’s probably not an issue because I think most builds can do T1 anyway.

My rhetorical question is why are these folks staying in Torment 1. Yes, the rewards probably isn’t night and day compare to Torment 2. I personally find it difficult to stay at T1 when I know I can go higher even with my Sorc.

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Agree with that. I would say that I dont think the fotm meta should be any better than 10-15 pit levels higher than any other reasonable invested in builds. I think all reasonable invested in builds should be able to comfortably do pit 100 minimum so that they can level their glyphs.

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The problems is when the devs say they are happy most build can do torment 1. Meaning they are less inclined to balance more builds aiming at higher torment levels. Which also means we will continue to have few build viable in high torment levels.

Current season is not a good indicator because SB is bugged, but if you look at the other 5 classes, they are not doing good. And that could be explained because dev think they are fine , cuz it is torment 1 viable lol

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The problems is when the devs say they are happy most build can do torment 1. Meaning they are less inclined to balance more builds aiming at higher torment levels.

This is completely false. The entire point of the PTR is to balance to the highest.

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The thing is… the devs want to make it difficult to even do T4. They want that content hard so they can keep the streamers types and try hard sweaties engaged longer. They didn’t do all this rework just to make another world tier 4 like the old game. They dont view T1-T4 as progression. They view it as making content difficult enough so that its actually hard for the best players.

Two problems with this. First spiritborn blew that plan for them. Yeah it was supposed to be a little OP but not anywhere near what it was. Second, nobody views the content that way. People will always view it as progression to go through with their character even though that is not the developers intent with it.

Thats why I say… this is what you get when you try to build a game for everyone.

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I believe D4 has a good amount of streamers who enjoy T4 and always pushing things (or exploiting) to the limit. I would expect that would have more weight than balancing with the casual majority. But balancing around T1 sounds more like what the casual majority is.

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Even wirh non SB players who are seriously invested in their class (streamers and non streamers) were able to do Pit 90s to Pit 100s in 2 weeks time. It just felt miserable and felt slow because we see how SB trivialize things. But ignoring SB, for an expansion, 2 weeks seem too short.

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Yes, I think that could be it… I viewed torment 1-4 as progression rather than not.

Most players probably viewed it that way to. But if not progression, why the drop rate increase going to higher torment tiers ?

That in itself is already a progression isn’t it ? Unless they make torment 1 - 4 same drop rate then it would not be viewed or interpreted as progression.

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Most players probably viewed it that way to. But if not progression, why the drop rate increase going to higher torment tiers ?

The drop rate did not increase. The drop amount increased. These are different for these purposes through this particular lens.

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the drop amount increase also means a high chance of getting what you want isn’t it ?

I think this argument is a little weird to make because let say

I kill a boss in torment 1 get = 2 loots (1% chance of mythic)
I kill a boss in torment 4 get = 5 loots (1% chance of mythic X 5 possible chances)

???

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My experience is quite the opposite. I got more crap and things I don’t want.

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LOL, yea I have to agree with that. T4 actually feels very unrewarding at the moment too I think devs massively missed the mark on that too. Torment 1-3 is just even worse …

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