I’m just spitballing here, but if say Pit 100+ had guarantee of 1GA items, and 150+ had guarantee of 2GA items along with increased chance of 3GA items then we have a feedback loop of run higher content to get better gear. Also, it would mean a constant supply of GA items which means bricking one becomes less of an issue.
Less of an issue? YES.
Still a issue? YES.
Why is it important to highlight this?
Because the further you go into the Endgame there are fewer players, and therefore it is only “less of an issue” for very few players.
Of course they’d want to make more money, that’s why they should appeal to a broad audience instead of the lowest common denominator.
Which they’ve done with tempering and masterworking.
But the changes people are requesting will narrow the game to the lowest common denominator.
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Good one, but still failing.
Wy? Because It is very easy to appeal to BOTH (on this particular topic about tempering)
And a practical example: Last Epoch, not with its crafting system, but with its trading system.
You let the player choose what they like most and then you balance the game to make both options fit.
You copy and paste the Tempering code with another name, change the base values (in such a way that it is balanced compared to the original) and then modify the system that controls the ID of the object (specifically the one that says how many attempts you have available) so that it detects which Tempering has been chosen and prevents from being used a different one.
The only thing missing is a good button to select the initial tempering and perhaps a window with information and instructions.
You reuse almost the entire interface, 99% of the code and you make everyone happy.
The problem with this approach is that it has to account for different levels of item rarity. But sure, you could do that math for how hard it is to find a build-appropriate 0 GA item, then do it for a 1 GA, etc., and have the price to reset match the time it takes to get those items. Not just any item with 1 GA, but an item with 3 specific affixes, one of which is GA. So you could figure out the equivalent amount of veiled crystal, then increase it by some factor as the cost of smoothing out the RNG.
The thing is, if this was actually the cost, there would still be a thread a day on here complaining that the cost is too high and they are spending all their time rerolling tempers. Because most people who are complaining don’t want a slow tempering system, they want the good loot faster.
This is one of the reasons why some folks think they should stand their ground on tempering and not allow any method of extra rerolls. Because when you tell the children they can have a small treat, they want a larger one and it seems arbitrary to say they can’t have just one more bit, but pretty soon they are visiting the dentist ten times a year.
Besides, there are better solutions than infinite rerolls. Make the failure cases less bad, add something on the items that favors certain tempers, adjust the rarities so that the really fun tempers are also rare and hitting that high roll feels really good. Double or triple or 5x the number of manuals, so there’s a longer tail of manual collection and there are more ways to find the right risk/reward level. Add more cool affixes that compete with double cast and effect size, so it’s not as big a disaster to miss one.
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I was thinking about that too, and I think it’s fair to base it on a GA3 or customize the cost of each item depending on its GA.
But, the good thing is that you have an excuse: There is a cheaper method, if you are willing to take the risk. 
Having options makes it much easier to assimilate and divert attention.
The speech changes from “you don’t like it? stop playing” to “you don’t like it? use the other system”.
It’s like Season. If someone complains that they don’t like it, the first response they get is “play Eternal”, and complaints only arise if one has more advantages than another. Season 4 has very few exclusive things and almost no one has complained that playing season is a bad idea. What’s more, the few complaints about it not having exclusive content have been non-existent since the beginning of the season. So, as long as they provide similar things, it seems to work very well.
And this happens because it’s harder to find someone who hates 2 opposites (but equivalent) systems than someone who hates just one.
Obviously, it is impossible to make everyone happy, but if it is possible to make a large majority happy. That is the goal.
Obviously it all arises because I personally don’t like it, but I wouldn’t be proposing ideas if it weren’t for the fact that more people have the same problem. It is also in my interest that the game becomes better and earns more money to support its development.
I agree, there are very interesting solutions, but they require a lot more work and design, and I don’t think the Devs will completely destroy a new system. I think the most reasonable thing (for now) is to try to adjust it.
Yeah I agree with this. Having the price be more than the risky option means the risky option is still the efficient one, so if they stick to that rule, it can easier to hold their ground against the people who want to play the game in creative mode.
Of course, given the different rarities of affixes like +to core skills vs + to main stat, the fair cost might be as much as 100-200 forgotten souls to reset an non-GA item, and then multiply that by 20 for each GA.
I think there are plenty of ways to improve it without destroying it, but they do take work. I want the devs to do that work and make a better system instead of taking the lazy path and just making it easier. Until that ship sails, I’ll be out here banging the drum for better-designed manuals and more competing chase affixes.
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Lol this over and over. GA’s are common enough to try again on and you don’t need them anyway.
It probably has been suggested before, but if it would get people to stop complaining:
Let people pick their affix at the cost of a temper with just the blue (magic level) manual roll #’s. Rare maybe, I never have used anything before legendary so don’t know the range. Keep Legendary rolls as is.
Of course people will still cry they can’t get a high enough #. But there, you can get your 5/5, it just will be weaker.
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So spending resources to create a clone system that has to be maintained separately and balanced separately while maintaining separate item IDs…
instead of just leave it the hell alone.
Agreed. People act like they’ll never see another GA again. It’s not like they’ll even log in enough to make use of it anyway.
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I was about to suggest this - the real issue isn’t that it’s random, it’s that some of the manuals are completely Hit-or-Miss; you either get the 1 affix that helps you, or you get one of the 3-4 useless ones that dont.
If instead we had a manual for Frozen Orb which gave e.g. Cost Reduction, Size Increase, Chance to cast twice or ‘Insert useful Forb Affix here’ then you would rarely (if ever) feel like the item was changed from a potentially great upgrade to something way worse than what you have. It might not have the exact affix you would like, but at least it has something that helps.
Of course there would still always come a time when finding an upgrade becomes extremely unlikely. But right now you can have a 0GA item with the right affixes and tempers, find a 3GA with the right base affixes which then whiffs on both Tempers and is rendered worse than what you had. That would be unlikely or even impossible if you were at least guaranteed to get something that helps in some way.
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I think this is all getting a bit out of hand.
It’s absolutely fine to think a system could be improved and discuss, make suggestions etc. to that end.
Some players just don’t have all the time in the world but would still like to feel they can at least have a chance to make some progress on their character even when they only have an hour or two to play. And when they feel like they have a chance to make progress but then get nowhere, it feels bad because they made no progress today.
The current system sets us up for that by having very powerful affixes in hit/miss manuals. I could be wrong, but I don’t think most people are complaining because they got Crit Damage instead of Cold damage when they temper.
They are talking about getting Blizzard Size or Ice Shards 5x when your build is Frozen Orb and your current item has an effective +30% multiplicative bonus which GAs just don’t overcome.
I think the best solution I have seen or can think of so far is to improve the manuals so they are less hit/miss. Maybe nerf the super powerful affixes a bit at the same time so others will have some sort of parity.
They still might not work out at the very high end, there will always come a time when the chances to get an upgrade become miniscule. But at least on the way up you stand a better chance of using the potentially great upgrades you find, albeit with non-optimal but still useful tempers.
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I like this. I like this a lot. Why wasn’t tempering manuals implemented this way in the first place?
Imagine Imprinting working like tempering, you get 5 chances to imprint an aspect and each time it’s a random roll from among 3-5 aspects in a group. People defending the current tempering limits should push for this new imprinting system. :3
not fun! would play more if i knew that this epic GA 3 item drop then to farm for hours just to have it bricked
I mean tempering helps you no matter what you roll anyway. It is always a buff.
That’s really only true at lower levels, I think the complaints are mostly WRT level 100 content.
If you have a 0GA item with the right base affixes which rolls well on the Weapon temper, it’s got something like a 30% multiplicative bonus. Even a 3GA with the right affixes probably doesn’t beat that if it whiffs on tempering, the Weapon temper specifically.
Not sure from memory what the other options are if any. Is it possible to choose a different manual which isn’t hit/miss? TBH I don’t think I have looked as I always focused on getting the best affix. If that does at least exist, so you have an alternative which will almost certainly give you something decent albeit reasonably inferior to the Weapon affixes, then the Weapon affixes could be seen as aspirational high-risk affixes.
So when you get your first 3GA weapon, you can play it safe to make sure it’s a decent upgrade albeit imperfect. Maybe you get that with Tempers still remaining. Then if you find another, you can try the high-risk manual on that.
Lots of way they could go which would improve things. Complaining about bricked items would be less reasonable if there were safer yet sub-optimal manual options.
To be fair, the devs did say they want to keep expanding on the Tempering manuals so maybe this is what they envisage but just didn’t have time to implement/test yet. Or maybe it’s already that way and we are overlooking it.
Not when you hit an affix for a skill you don’t use on your build. 
How is move speed while blood mist a buff for someone who doesn’t use blood mist?
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Tempering in this game is dumpster fire of rng mechanics … Why not make it like changes affixes on a gear pick from 3 in a random list and let us not change it if it sucks… I’ve literally got the same temper 5 times in a row … bs
I think a good alternative to the system would be to let us choose the affix and have the roll range be the rng part, that way it sucks less and there’s still the rng part so it’s not instantly good.
No. Spend minimal resources to improve a piece of code based on numbers and balance that are known to the developers and only improving the ID system of an Item.
(All items start with 5 attempts, and that is surely part of their ID because it remembers how many attempts are left on an item… just create one line of code that places a 6 instead of a 5 when you press a button and another additional line that uses the second system if the number is 6 or greater. The game even knows how to recognize when you have 0 attempts because it blocks the item… you can even reuse that line of code to identify a different condition and change the result. It’s not magic… it’s a “problem solving” that any programming novice can solve for you. Literally the first thing they teach you anywhere is how to copy and paste.)
Instead of letting a large portion of your players suffer.
False.
Only if you use general manuals It is always useful. There are manuals that can give you useless stats for your current build.
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