VoH Director: "S5 of D4 is a better game, objectively, than it was a year ago"

PC General Discussion
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This is what Gavian Whishaw, VoH’s game director said in an interview on VGC.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/features/interviews/interview-blizzard-on-the-future-of-diablo-4/

Let’s count the :+1: and :-1: of S5 D4 compared to launch D4 then. As objectively as possible.

Character Progression :-1:
1-100 comes and goes like it was never there in S5 and it feels like a chore. Launch D4 had the advantage of the campaign and the experience was tailored around it providing overall a fun experience up to lvl75.

Loot hunt :-1:
The joy of hunting loot is objectively worse in S5 mainly because of 2 things. The game showers the player in loot while 99% of the drops are complete garbage, and the tempering system being from lacklustre to frustrating. Launch D4 had the problem of affix overload but the drops could be decent, resulting in rewarding drops. Plus, rare items weren’t obsolete. Ultimately, in both versions you were a garbage sifter.

Combat: Tie
On launch D4 you could only play at a slower pace, but on S5 you can only blast. Equally bad in terms of player choice. Which is essentially 0.

Modes :+1:
S5 has more modes than launch D4 so that’s objectively better.

Roleplaying :-1:
I’m not going to pretend launch D4 had a great RP experience, but at least it was obvious the developers tried to hone in some world building with all the side-quests, the restrictive respec, and the overall idea of player-character journey. Well, that all went to the bin in S5. New season starts, you get ported to Helltides and that’s it. Terrible experience.

Immersion :-1:
Again, launch D4 has the advantage of the campaign and the incentivised exploration of the overworled. S5’s theme is just too small in scale to make a dent. It quickly ends up being a mindless sandbox.
Launch D4 was never a challenging game but it did offer some mild pushback so in return you could feel a sense of accomplishment, even though minor. In S5 this is also gone with the experience being overly flat/boring.

QoL :+1:
Massive qol changes took place since launch. From the gems to the aspects not taking inventory space, to the horse, etc. This is probably the only area where D4 got the most updates.

Overall, launch D4 was more immersive, had better character progression, better loot hunt, but lacked the qol changes of S5 D4 and its additional modes. In conclusion, as many players said before me; D4’s development has been 2 steps forwards, 4 steps backwards.

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id say your assessment is pretty far off and not in line with the majority of the playerbase

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Tell me you are not objective without telling me you are not objective.

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I agree with some of these.

Combat I think S5 is :+1:, because really outside of IH, you can still choose to play slow if you want to.

Immersion should be a tie, you’re only thinking launch was better because it was new to you then. There is still much to get immersed into if you make your own builds.

Balance: You did not mention this is far better in S5 and getting closer to being good.

Roleplaying: In S5 I am a Triceratops, :+1:

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Character Progression → 0. Just has always been too fast.
Loot hunt :+1: Way worse a year ago. Disagree.
Combat → 0. Agree.
Modes :+1: Agree
Roleplaying → 0 Nobody cares about this or does it.
Immersion → 0 This was never going to go much of anywhere. Campaign is bad with no meaningful choices. Bad to start and bad now.
QoL :+1: Sure

You missed at least 7 things:

Hero Balance: :-1:. Completely out of balance still worse than ever.
Dupe Defense: → 0. Dupes every single season is getting old.
Bossing: :+1:. Definitely better now with resummon and 1 stone per.
Trading: :-1: Bliz opened this up then forced us to use third party sites to do it. Bad.
Partying: :-1: Still have a bug with parties since S0. I dont like to log in and out 100 times a day. That this still hasnt been fixed is a -1 I think. Could be a 0 but Im saying -1.
Masterworking: Overall a :+1:. There is something filling on hitting that triple crit.
Tempering: Overall a :-1:. Bricking is a major issue.

:+1: 5
:-1: 4

Barely better overall just counting points but impact is much bigger than that.

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These low effort comments that say essentially nothing are :fire:

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I have the exact opposite opinion.

Character Progression :+1:

D4 at launch was a slow, boring grind that I never wanted to repeat again. Sure, the campaign took up some of the leveling time, but leveling with or without the campaign was about as fun as cutting 100 acres of grass with a pair of scissors. I’m so glad this was sped up.

Loot hunt :+1:

There is no joy in hunting for items with a .001 percent drop chance. Especially when we are talking a game that has a three month reset. The itemization and damage on Tuesday’s garbage were thankfully redesigned to something more coherent. The tempering system needs a little work, but it along with masterworking is a hundred times better than that mess we had to deal with at launch.

Combat :+1:

I hated the combat at launch. Throwing a basic attack numerous times to set up a core skill is boring gameplay. The faster paced combat is the right way to go. If you want slow combat, go play No Rest For The Wicked or a souls like game. This is suppose to be an ARPG.

Modes

Not really sure what you mean with this one

Roleplaying. TBD

Of course roleplaying and exploration was more fun at launch. Everything was new and waiting to be discovered. Once you’ve explored everything, collected all the statues and got all your renown, there is nothing left to role play or explore until the next expansion. Seasons are nothing more than shaking up the leveling experience .

Immersion is a double dip because it’s in the same box as role playing.

QOL :-1:

I’m giving it a thumbs down because this should have all been in game from day one. No excuse for lack of what are obvious needs that could be seen from just a few hours gameplay. Clearly they took their D2 inspiration a little too far with the lack of QOL.

Direction :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1: :+1:

The retreat from D2 direction was a wise move because it almost sank the game. The numerous horrible reviews this game got post launch speaks for itself. Long , slow grinds and low drop rates with little QOL make for a very boring game. There was nothing immersive or fun about it. I understand you much prefer the game as it was at launch, but you are very much in the minority on that opinion.

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The notion that you’ve missed the previous four seasons, the only thing you’ve missed is us continuing to learn and iterate, so that Season 5 is as good as it is because of our previous seasons.

Kind of just reiterates the point the game was not ready when it launched.

Won’t happen, you’d have to base it off facts, which you aren’t doing. However let’s go down the list with you.

  1. Character Progression
    Subjectively better for some, subjectively worse for others. You’re not going to see eye to eye with the other side on this one, regardless of which side you’re on.
     
  2. Loot Hunt
    Once again, subjective. I would argue the loot hunt is better in S5 then it was at launch. I would rather have a 3/3 in S5 then I would a 3/5 at launch or before S4. Finding a 4/5 or a 5/5 was just out of the question regardless before S4, not to mention the sheer amount of affixes that could roll on each piece of gear. You also spent far more time sifting through rares as well as legendaries.
     
  3. Combat
    I will say aside from the constant balance changes and new metas popping up every season this in general hasn’t changed much other then to see our numbers hit record highs. Do you want more damage sponges, or more speedruns is basically what it comes down to. Although in S5 you still have damage sponges in The Pit.
     
  4. Modes
    Modes? We only have 2 modes Seasonal or Eternal, with Softcore and Hardcore respectively. Unless you’re talking about something else entirely like end-game content?
     
  5. Roleplaying
    They’ve kept the themes of the seasons along with quest lines to further along the story. Granted it’s not much per season, with or without the gimmick mind you, but it’s there. I think you’re confusing RPing with the campaign which is a one-time thing in Diablo games. So again subjective.
     
  6. Immersion
    Subjective per player. Some people actually enjoy going back through the campaign every major patch/season. Eternal realm players also stick to their one character which adds to their immersion. This is just judged off personal preference.
     
  7. QoL
    About the only thing I would say is objectively better due to the fact we have more QoL in the game, not necessarily what the QoL is. Although what the QoL is definitely helps.

So you’re 1 for 7, I’m going to take away a point for attempting to make a subjective post objectified. Thanks for playing though, we wish you luck in the expansion.

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I agree with this, so I am not going to bother writing the same thoughts.

I will say that you aren’t really and can’t really be objective about it. It’s all based on your personal preference which is subjective.

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I’m not sure but you missed :point_right: :+1: :-1: :point_left:

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I intially misread the title: VOH Director: S5 is better than VoH lol. I was like why the heck a VoH directory would even say that.

Here’s my vote:

Character progression.
I prefer the progression in S5 than S0/S1 because you suffer less and get there faster. I am not saying it’s ideal or the best. I am just saying it’s less painful. Less pain means better to me.

Loot hunt.
I prefer the loot hunt in S0/S1 because Ubers are rare. In S5 (or whenever these became true), Ubers became a staple part of most builds. When you have shako and tyrael, you now have less gear to hunt because you are pretty much set.

Combat.
I prefer the combat now than in S0/S1 where CC, DoT, one hit teleporters, one hit boars, too accurate Corpse Bows, one hit jumping Cannibals are killing you. It’s less annoying in S5. I am not saying it’s perfect but it’s less annoying.

Modes.
I feel it’s been the same. The only mode is to follow the meta.

Roleplaying.
Lol. Again all you can do is follow the meta. You are roleplaying the meta build that everyone is running with.

Immersion
Nope. I never found this game immersive at any point of time.

QoL
S5 definitely has way better QoL. For me the auto teleport to NM 100 dungeons instead of running from waypoint to the the dungeon was a big QoL. The removal of resetting dungeons just to refarm a boss is also another one.

One thing that should be noted and I would say a huge plus to D4 is the console and controller support is really great.

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Those words don’t mean what you think they mean.

From a subjective standpoint, D4 is in a better state now than it was a year ago. Does it still need improvement? Of course it does, but progress is not always a straight path.

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I played D4 throughout the betas, pre-season and season 1. Then quit for a long while. Came back for season 5 and I can say without a doubt that the game is better today than it was at launch.

Less affixes on gear (though there are still too many). Quality of life improvements. Tormented bosses. Infernal Hordes. Glyphs level much faster (it was a massive grind in S1). Monster density in Helltides is much better, and mind cages are a nice addition as well. The list goes on.

So many people hated D4 after completing the campaign and reaching endgame on launch. The endgame was almost non-existent. At least there’s stuff to do now.

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The rate of D4’s improvements is absolutely staggering. Although the game didn’t launch with deep ARPG mechanics, it has caught up really nicely over the last year. I believe D4 deserves the “most improved game” award. It’s only getting better from here with all the VoH mechanics and new toys.

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I’m with you on the slow leveling, I preferred that. The downside was that you went through all the trouble and the loot wasn’t great and there was basically nothing great to do or to gain by hitting 100.

The loot hunt really wasn’t better, it was just more scarce. The actual items themselves weren’t really that great though. They’re about to improve that again in S6 from the looks of it.

Combat was better at launch in some respects. The monster families were actually kinda cool to play around before it all became a mess of monster affixes and ground effects in late game. Now we ignore monster abilities almost entirely and just worry about poison pools.

Lots more modes, definitely one of the bigger wins, despite some of them not being very useful or engaging currently. I expect further iteration over the next year will probably make the worse ones more enjoyable.

Immersion is something that naturally just disappears with an ARPG at endgame. You’ve done the slow Wanderer’ing around the map already, done your sidequests for the grand total of one time that they’re at all interesting, and so you settle in to the grind until the next campaign expansion where you can get that feeling again by playing a fresh character through it without all the bells and whistles.

QoL features are much better. Still a couple major ones missing such as our garbage stash quantity and lack of loadouts, and an absolute dearth of cosmetic rewards for actually playing the game, completing challenge content, etc.

I’d say the game is better overall. Still not going in the direction I’d prefer in some respects, but getting a little closer in others. I am a little annoyed that it’s probably going to be another 5 years before they give us the ability to hit lvl100 again though. :joy: :v:

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I know what your saying but I think it comes from a flawed perspective; a perspective that game development is complete at launch or ever complete in general.

Games development, like most software development, is never complete. It is possibly abandoned at some point, but never complete. Luckily we now live in a time were development can be a continium with players, instead of a one and done release.

D4 launched and has recieved constant updates to systems and progression. IMO, the EA/Live method of development is the most likely method to develop good games, especially multipleplayer games. And thats why we see more and more games adopt this approach.

And going forward most games should be developed this way if the developers want to make good games before they abandon them.

i.e. D4 was ready, as it was in a playable state with a stable foundation to be played/tested for further development iterations.

I think they worked/struggled to find that foundation for years before release, but once they had the foundation it was time to release.

If there is something to complain/criticize it would be how D4 was labled. It wasn’t called ‘Paid Early Access’ and while they did communicate it is a ‘Live’ game, I don’t think that term fully communicates the degree of continued development a consumer can expect. The meaning and extent of the ‘Live’ term can greatly vary from developer to developer.

But as we can see with the D4 team, ‘Live’ means constant, and at times extreme, continued development. IMO, its a good thing.

But ultimately they delivered. The launch version was played and enjoyed and since then it has recieved updates/revisions/refactoring continously since; and IMO, those revisions have improved the game drastically.

So far the dev team has been more productive than most in a Live setting. That productivity isn’t due to a ‘unfinished’ game its due to the develop strategy and the willingness to refactor to extreme degrees.

I look forward to how the game will evolve over the next few years. And we wouldn’t be where we are right now if they don’t release and gain the feedback/insight from Live Play.

Good Luck. Have fun.

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This here is the problem I feel. We got the bare bones of an ARPG when it launched. There was no polish, no QoL features that were present in their previous games, quite literally no endgame. We got a game that was perfect for beta that had a stable foundation as you said. We were sold that product as is, and to rub salt in the wound the interviews and updates after that just seemed like a slap in the face to the players.

From our perspective we saw a rather over zealous general manager of the franchise talking about cookies and colonoscopies, a game director who looked half asleep and was just there for the paycheck, and a handful of developers where the energy was mixed between ‘we want to make this game better’ and ‘when will this live stream be over?’

Suggestions and questions asked by the players appeared to be taken as brand new ideas from the team. As if they had never heard of such things before and would like to add them to the game. That’s the bigger issue here, from the start I doubt anyone can tell you what their vision was for the game after launch. Other then to add seasonal gimmicks every 3 months.

After the horrible launch and reception of D3, the player base was ready for a banger, not what we got. To their credit they fixed one thing with the launch of D4, and that is stable servers. Now I know not everyone experienced this, yes there were exceptions, but in general there was very little hiccups getting into the game.

I see it as both, the only reason they’ve had a fire lit under their butts is because of the outcry of the community for more then just the base game at launch. The game was rushed out, there’s no question. We all know the reasons, there’s numerous interviews and reports of all the troubles that D4 went through just to get made.

They essentially released Diablo 2 but worse gameplay/grind, with better graphics, and the reception was horrible. No surprise there, the majority of the player base didn’t want this version of D2. Hell according to the numbers they didn’t necessarily want the version of D2 out today. Some do, but not the majority of players.

So it was ‘unfinished’ in the sense that the franchise should’ve evolved beyond a bare bones Diablo 2 game, which didn’t even come with all the features D2 even had mind you. It’s like asking your favorite restaurant to make you a burger, and they come out with quite literally a burger patty between two pieces of bread. That’s what we got. It’s a burger, there’s no question, but it’s extremely bland.

Agreed, also why I’m still suggesting to people who are on the fence to wait it out and not buy it currently.

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While I can agree, or at least see the point, with most of what you say; I don’t agree with this premise.

Again, it comes from the term ‘Live.’ While I don’t think they did a perfect job of communicating what they planned, they did communicate most of what we are seeing in terms of development.

  • From the beginning they stated regular seasonal content with multiple dev teams.
  • From the beginning they communicated multiple yearly expansions.
  • And near the beginning they communicated a steady 5 year live development cycle.

I agree fully that the exact changes and path the game has taken was NOT planned; That is the whole point of the ‘Live’ development. And I agree the scale of the changes was not communicated. However, the constant development was planned from the beginning; not some knee jerk reaction to community feedback. And IMO they deserve credit for actually executing it.

i.e. While specific changes may be knee jerk reactions to community feedback, the willingness and resources to execute those changes has been planned from the beginning.

For how large a company/dev team this is, it is impressive they are being this agile; more agile than much smaller teams/titles.

See you in VoH. I need to buy a new computer before then.

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I’m a relative newcomer to D4 starting at the beginning of S3 (although a veteran of the original and 2 for many years) so I can’t really say if D4 was great at launch firsthand. That said I find it much better now than when I started. And through my rose-colored glasses of optimism that let me assume blindly that many of the PTR bugs will be fixed for launch, I believe S6 will be even better!

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Not sure, you can still do the campaign in S5, but who wants to redo the campaign? There are so many QoL improvements between S1 and S5 that playing S1 feels like taking four steps backwards. Plus, there’s much more aspect variety and unique items. Overall, S5 is much better than S1. I think players are just a bit bored with the short seasons and want more content. Luckily, there’s an expansion coming soon.