The elephant in the room - player expectation?

PC General Discussion
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Its interesting watching the debates around itemization ebb and flow :popcorn:

On the one hand, its clear that patience for grinding isn’t what it used to be, at least for large segments of the modern player base. The idea that you might have to do 1000 Baal runs before you find an item, even once isn’t going to cut it with the modern requirements of an ARPG, regardless of how good ’ itemization’ appears to be on paper (at least in my opinion).

However, the debate around tempering is very interesting and IMO boils down to one very simple question; how long should someone have to play on average to get a full set of 925, 5/5 affix, 3 GA gear?

Forget about the base item and forget tempering for a moment, what is reasonable in 2024 for the average gamer? Should that even be possible inside a three month season?

Then…

Recognizing that being a loot based game, certain end game content is obviously going to be locked behind itemization. In the current system, there is very little chance of the average player completing a 100+ PIT or beating a Tormented Uber Boss without very good gear. Let alone 150+ which I will assume will require near BIS gear…at what point, do the developers just hold the line and say not everything in Diablo 4 is accessible unless you invest the time - which circles us around to the first question?

Note of caution - there are obviously bugs, balance issues and all sorts of little things that need attention. However, the fundamental issue seems to stay consistent and that is many players just want to get to the end. but then demand more once they reach that point.

So back to the first question, how much time should the average player have to invest to be decked out in 925, 5/5 affix; 3 GA gear, that is the crux of the issue right?

Drop rates and bricking items via tempering is all just a symptom of trying to establish, or meet player expectation around how long the itemization journey takes. You can cut the RNG and time in any direction here.

I suspect this will fall on ‘deaf ears’ as many players don’t want to face up to the reality of this question and/or don’t want to admit they just don’t want to invest the time in a game designed around loot hunting at its very core.

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Time investment is different per person because of RNG. Some people will spend 4 hours of active looting to get a full set of triple GA, 925 IP, 5/5 desirable affixes without ever trading. And then you have the people who will never see a triple GA the entire season. Because we’re at the mercy of RNG. And there’s nothing a player can do to change those odds.

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Why don’t we talk about the average player then as that is how probability works? We can dwell at the very edges of the bell curve but all that does is stonewall the conversation.

Based on the drop-rate I am experiencing (maybe luck is a factor) I am salvaging large numbers of GA 2 items in a play session, to the point they are a resource of little concern to me and getting to the point of not worth collecting other than for the aspects. Regarding GA 3 legendary items, while only anecdotal I am seeing about 1 per 60-90mins of gameplay and I am not optimizing my time. Not to mention, GA items drop from every activity in the game.

However, back to the question at hand - do you actually have a view RE the OP?

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I play daily for at least a couple to a few hours… some days I can just veg and grind away. To put that into perspective, i’ll be 100 tonight or tomorrow, on my first character for this season (this is the first season i plan to make more characters because collecting gear isn’t the soul-sucking job that it was before). I’ve had errands and a camping trip in the past week.

I don’t expect to have a full set of 3GA 5/5 12/12 gear before the end of the season on any one character. I intend to have 1-2GA in every slot with 5/5 good enough affixes and 12/12 masterwork. Based on this week, I think that’s an easy goal.

As it stands, i’ve only found one 2GA piece of gear (just this morning), having maxed IW rep and progressed from 20ish to 50ish tier NMD with dropped sigils. My girlfriend has spent less time than me and she’s gotten a couple 2GA drops and a good 3GA drop that doesn’t work for her but would have been great for me (if we were paying for PS+, we’re playing couch coop).

I expect I’ll get my druid over T100 pit… no idea how much over. My goal is to be able to solo/duo farm the tormented bosses. We’ll see if we get there. We’ll see how far i have to push our gear for that. It depends on whether or not the grind remains fun and/or worth it.

That’s the best answer i can give you.

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RNG is a cruel mistress to some.

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I think it depends on how fun the grind is and how much it changes from season to season.

If people are just doing the same thing over and over, are positively bored doing it, and it’s identical to the grind to every season before it, then they will want the grind to be very short (probably a few weeks maximum).

On the other hand, if they’re having the time of their lives doing the grind and it’s a completely new experience every season, they’ll be willing to have a much longer grind (potentially most of the season).

In any case, this question doesn’t really apply to me because I don’t expect I will ever reach 925, 5/5 affix; 3 GA gear in any season. I’ve only levelled one character all the way to 100 (in season 2) and that season I quit shortly after that. Every other season ended for me with my character somewhere between 72 and 98. :slight_smile:

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Even though you have some reasonable points here i have to disagree, i don’t think we have proof of
the fundamental issue seems to stay consistent and that is many players just want to get to the end. but then demand more once they reach that point.
other than our own biased perception.
I think most of the complains with the new systems are fair and logical and fall in the category of qol rather than making the gameplay itself easier or quicker. For example, gold costs, what is there to say? its awful and it serve no porpouse other than stoping you from playing the activities that you enjoy and instead go do whispers, how fun? right?
I think the problem with this game has always been the restrictions, level restriction for gear, resource restriction for gearing up, time restrictions for activities (old helltides), restriction to keep going in a dungeon (carry a freaking rock and free prisoners), restrictions to build because now we buff this and nerf this, restriction to economy (now somewhat fixed, no ah though), restriction for group play, restrictions upon restrictions. Obviusly there has to be some restrictions otherwise the “live service” model woulnd’t work, but they have to put restrictions in the gameplay loop itself, not artifical restrictions just for the sake of it, players want to log into the game and do what ever the they want without feeling they are being restricted.
In diablo 2 you can log in complete your run, clear hell difficulty and then you can do what ever you want, poe is the same, you complete your stuff and then you can do what ever you want, destiny 2 even though is not an arpg, i use as an example because i played a lot and its the same, you complete the campaing and the you have a lot of activities with varius rewards that you can do if you chose to.
Finally sorry for the long rant but that is MY player expectation from a game.

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I cant really comment on the OP because Im currently at lvl 62 and have been having decent success finding items to help me level up, with tempering Ive had decent results - again not end game items.

I do think its a bit overtuned - Ala D3 where u would be level 80 in a few hours. Were barely a week in and Im level 62 which usually takes me 2 months to reach - like after a D2 ladder reset.

I think they should leave the items drops the same - it is a LOOT FINDING game, but turn leveling down a bit. Just my opinion because I dont have to be the best or be top ladder player and just want to enjoy the 3 month ladder and have a realistic chance to do everything I want in the ladder season …

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Form reading players’ feedback, bricking item through tempering is not a symptom but a major complaint because it’s an unfun system. Finding a triple GA should excite you but under a current system, you also dread it at the same time since you can brick it by tempering. I admit that it looks weird.

Raxx argued that a game needs BOTH moments of excitement (dopamine rush) AND moments where you crash and burn (e.g. this tempering system where you can brick a triple GA). I think I can see his point but maybe rendering an item useless (bricking) is too harsh.

They can readjust player’s time investment if there’s no bricking through other means, e.g. lowering GA drop rate, deepening the temper pool (e.g. by consolidating some categories), or raising tempering cost.

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One unasked question here is “Are all player supposed to beat the endgame” ? IE kill uber Lilith, clear max pit and so on.
And it’s definitely something that you take into consideration when you design your game.
tbh I haven’t thinked about this by myself, it was mention during an interview with POE2 lead game designer with Josh Strife Hayes iirc. And thinking about this in regards of very hard or grindy games can put things into perspective.

I suppose that all of us expect to be able to do that (or we want to), but what if it wasn’t designed in such a way ?
If it’s design in such a way that you need a good amount of time AND very good knowledge, then you designed a game where very little are able to roll over the extreme endgame by their own (and some definitely want to figure things by their own).

But it’s also really hard to retain people attention when you only offer a limited set of activities and you will only have very dedicated people by week 3-4 into the season (and we’re not even there yet).

When talking about expectation, is clearing a 3 month season in one or two week match your expectation about a “seasonal” game ?

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i expected decent endgame. no one lazily scaled up dungeon that no one will ever finish anyway.

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I think the better question is: should players have BiS in all slots?

I am an avid player of D3. They have made it much easier to get BiS but still, you can go a whole season and due to RNG not have BiS stats on every single piece of gear. You can still push to 150 GRs with like near BiS.

Another thing to ask is: should tempering be changed? It is such a stupid system. When I reroll and get the SAME stat i DONT WANT 5x in a row, that just angers me and makes me feel the devs are lazy. I had a great item i just deleted because it bricked with a useless temper.

Game should have a certain amount of RNG. However, tempering is too important and makes you log out angry when you brick a 2/3 or 3/3 GA piece because you got a stat that is no good for you.

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I’ll be the devil advocate here (because we need some sometime).

What if you get you 3 GA then can temper as you wish until you get perfect roll. You then stop looking for that slot.
It’s no longer a matter of gear farm, it’s a matter of mats/gold farm. Something that designer probably don’t want.

And considering how rare a triple GA that match you build occur on player basis, I don’t expect to get a full perfect gear (even considering unlimited temper) on my own. If you want to do that, you’ll have to engage into player trade for sure (that may be one way to incentivize us to do so, especially now that we got that popup on login that direct us to the D4 official discord where you can find trade chanels).

Because of the law of big numbers, it’s possible to do so with trading even with limited temper, but you’ll need to be really wealthy to do that on the current iteration of the game.

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I would be fine if tempering rotated between the choices. You still won’t get a perfect roll unless you are lucky but you at least get a roll of what you need.

Or I’d also be good with being able to buy extra tempers.

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I have been no lifeing since the patch. I haven’t seen a single 3 ga item and have only seen 2-2 ga items. One of my 2 ga’s items rolled 4 in a row on tempering and now is basically useless. My bow has 1 ga, my chest has 1 ga, and one of my daggers has 1 ga. Everything else equipped has 0 ga’s.

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the main problem is there is no balance in this game!! its either one or 2 builds at most

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That was never a thing. And people only run baal to level. It’s like an hour. I can farm meph over the course of 1 hour and have a pile of things that I could trade. Same thing with just running ancient tunnels or something. Or Trav.

The problem with this game is the grinds aren’t worth it. They’re too elongated and the rewards are mostly stat sticks (zzz). This should be an item hunt game. But it’s trying to incorporate rep grind type stuff.

That’s never going to be acceptable in an ARPG loot hunter and it never was.

This game needs to focus on itemization, continue redoing the itemization, and create some sort of trading venue like an auction house, a marketplace or even a website, and completely redo nightmare dungeons if they’re still going to force people in them to be efficient.

Make cellars a thing. Like pindle runs.

All kinds of things they could do.

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I agree the levelling was too fast early on, but it does slow down quite a bit as you get deep into WT4…and maybe it slows down a bit too much.

So maybe slow down levelling earlier levels quite a lot, but speed levelling up at the higher end just a bit too to partially compensate.

In theory, aren’t we supposed to spend half the levelling game on WT1-2 getting to level 50, and not take on the first Capstone dungeon until we’re close to level 50?

I’m going to end up spending longer on levels 95-100 than in did levels 1-60 put together.

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This Game is doing everything it can to get people not to play it. This game has been out a year, running the same boring map and dungeons. This season is the worst of all and the least rewarding of em all. They need to get a clue that their dungeons and helltide are boring as hell and the game would do better for itself if it drop necessary items sooner than later. I have owned and played every Diablo there ever was and all I can say is this is the last time I purchase this franchise. This game is so bad that I am thinking on not playing call of duty ever again as well.

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The answer must be no, with the caveat it’s not impossible for those that want to do it ‘and’ are willing to put the effort in.

PIT level 200 may very well be something that can only be achieved on the Eternal realm for example.

Disagree and I am enjoying this season more than any other. With the exception of poor balance in some areas.

Nice troll

Yes it’s a little out of whack.

You can have things to trade but only because items are scarce and have a value. There is some rose tinted glasses here, while there wasn’t a huge barrier to content the best stuff in Diablo 2 is extremely rare that’s because of the RNG nature of affixes. I would bet most people buying Diablo 4 could not handle that level of time investment and rng any longer.