They are pretty terrible. Some classes really have very poor choices to make as well. Do I choose this bad skill or this worse skill…
ONE of the core problems.
itemization, dungeon design, crafting(LACK OF).These are some of the other ones. When you actually write it down and read it it really puts into perspective how completely clueless the D4 devs are at making an arpg. The nonstop nerfs early on whenever players optimized builds/dungeon runs, was jus the icing on the cake, until the outraged players had to teach them that doing this was not a good way to run a game. The ongoing backlash and player drop off was a forgone conclusion.
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Skill tree + itemization are the main problems. They are core elements when it comes to building your character and feeling your power improve.
As usual the only thing most of you can think of is copying something else.
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D4 is not a “skill build” simulator type game, it’s combat first, it’s in the items, in the conditionals, how events work, how movement works, mechanics which are a level “under” skills i.e. skills depend on mechanics (rather than the other way round)
You name it, D4 is NOT your standard a/RPG game in which “character building” is core
They should’ve kept what initial difference existed and expand on it. Expand the “investability” of all the possible mechanics in game - crit, vuln, CC, vs CC, overtime, overpower, fortify/barrier, resource-based buffs, hp-based buffs regardless of what skills do (or can do)
Now they’re in the middle of nowhere and trying to “reinvent the steel” so to speak and replace the “initial core” of D4 which wasn’t build to work like the other games, and I’m still in doubt whether or not they should do it, but also whether they could without hurting the little good things that already exist in it tbh
The problem with the skill tree is, the gear is actually part of the skill tree! For example: if you use HOTA, you MUST use the “Ancestral Force” Aspect; if you use Twisting Blades, “Bladedancer’s”; etc…
In other words, your gear has no wriggle room, and is all within expectation from the moment you’ve decided on your build. After that point, you’re just grinding and grinding to realize a foregone conclusion, and there are no surprises.
In comparison, in D2 your build is more or less “functional” between the skill levels and the synergy. The items offers relatively generic effects (not tied to any class/skill) and it is up to you to discover how it “twists” your build.
You are not guaranteed to find certain items either, which make you plan your build with consideration of alternatives.
That is why finding a new unique item in D2 opens up possibilities, and the same build can still have multiple gear layouts.
lack of reading comprehension, huh? congrats! you are THE target audience for Blizzard’s runaway hit, Diablo IV!
My fault I suppose, but I normally don’t read Huge Wall O Text like this… luckily you got to the point in Most of your… Points, lol.
I’m a simple person and I’m very content with what D 4 has given me in all honesty,
- HOWEVER, having more diversity in the skill tree wouldn’t be a bad idea. To be even more creative in every skill by giving the players more options can never hurt (Just don’t over do it, I say).
As a Sorcerer player 80% of the time it would be nice to see Sorcerer’s using Shadow damage skill’s of some sort instead of using the basic elements of Lightning, Fire and Cold. Maybe Poison skills like the Rouge.
How about using Psychic skills ? ? Earth skills?
I’m sure other characters can use other skill options as well.
Thinking about it though, if (they, the Dev’s) were to PUT more skill choices into the Skill tree I can imagine them having to Again rework all the Gear/Items that would fall to Cater to such things… which I don’t see that happening…
That being said this thread may be pointless…
(Still a good suggestion though)
This is what I say for loooong time. Almost only difference is ressource managment at that lvl with few exception there is no other differences.
Yes we should have option to play every skill with at least 3 different choices (fire blizzard etc)
Skilltree— well skill bush now need a big overhaul, but I still think itemization overhaul is more important for now. It can supply skill bush for a while if it will be done correctly.
But yeah I hope we seen (and not lock behind DLC) some skill overhaul.
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[quote=“LohanCohan-2130, post:1, topic:153714”]
– The tree is missing the defining characteristic of a skilltree. making meaning full choices.
I get what you mean when you iterate in the second paragraph below and i think great affix’s will be providing something for that, its up to uniques in this game so far and its not enough i agree, and some aspects do also. The nodes, depends on the node, but i am making a choice, probably more so on boards though.
One thing i am finding is since there is Choices, they are linked and not singular so for example the choice to take HOTA, and the node when i Overpower with HOTA i get 30x damage for 5s, is a choice based on what i can do with it for HOTA but aslo for the other skills, As a mutiplier, of 30% for 5s, i ask myself so if i have it here, instead of for example when i swap weapons 8 times, as i may want a one weapon barb, its just a example. can i guarentee OP to activate this, do i enjoy the playstyle of Looking at those smaller skill bar Symbols so i can time my HOTA strikes.
You see this is how i customise and find engagement, askign these questions, and then things click and i feel the progression and pay off more, Looking are it as a single choice feels rather bland i have been there, as if you choose this early, you are probably only going to over power at a 3% change rate, so it feels like nothing,
This is how i concluded Nodes are my fine tunning choice, i really dont need them mostly other wise, If you want to set and forget for later that is fine. But that is how it shines. I have Bonenbreaker so ever12s on a timer i proc hota for a mutiplier, i then swap weapons to proc another OP, With the 30%mutiplier and with UH i have it so that OP every 25s, so every 2nd or 3rd rotation i will get bonebreaker procs HOTA procs a 30% UH strike which is guarenteed to OP and has another 20% mutiplier.
Its alot to understand and i built it complicated and requires timing and monitoring of my SB to play it optimal.
You can build much simpler, too like a bonebreaker every 12s with VHOTA gives you a 30% dmg mutiplier, and wieght that choice up between your aspects and other mutipliers, and playstyle.
Less technical node is you do X dmg with fury on hit. See how that fits what you are building and playstyle. The effects sadly are it quakes and has aoe, and i agree the effect looks boring and could be way cooler. And we lack choice for sure.
So i look at nodes as those and i feel they needed more time and will add, or re-work it or whatever they are doing, to offer more effects.
Once you lock into it and get used to it it makes sense and the choice feels more robust and you are free to explore how to add or make use of the effect, So for FHOTA, you may explore resouce gains in your build since its based on the amount you have when you strike.
You do not Have to pick all nodes, So you may only want Enhaced Hota for Hota and you would have reasons why you will spend that point elsewhere, based on how you want to build HOTA, and that applies to all of it. Maybe you don’t want a node at all, just ranks or no points spent and get ranks from gear so you can get a Passive higher in ranks like Brute force for example, with a over rank
So yeah skills and fine tunning is how i see the tree. One piece of the build, gear and paragon and how i fit it together is the rest.
Not saying you dont know this, or anything, i just know i thought about it it many different ways and i often see different approachs, which is totally fine, that is the point of the game. This is just my thought process as someone that went through the same feelings, i just slapped on rupture half read it, pumped ranks, did the stabby thing and nothing happened.
Now i am much better at the playstyle and skill usage, meaning i only need 1 rank in it to be effective as for that skill ranks only reduce CD, so unless i need more CD for rupture i might take nodes but not ranks on that one. Its damage comes from prep, timing and payload. playstyle.
I feed this Skill by adding to my Bleeding Dmg, so i have 150% on it right now and for Rupture that is how i Bleed more, not ranks or nodes. So gear Affix, (yeah those useless additives cough) and glyphs, whatever effects the stat bleeding damage.
So yeah this effects Crimson etc its why people think the weapon is bad, they are using it wrong.It great for every situation not really, but it has usage and effectiveness. and i have a pretty crappy one atm, but i invested in Bleeding dmg.
So now i am blood gushing, on OP prcos, I can OP kick and Oneshot and get a Blood gush so there is my effect, or rupture OP proc and have blood gushing and crimson blood pool and bloodboils on OP procs. So yeah Not all of it is super polished yet but its pretty cool once you bring something together. Just need to look at the options and thnik about how the may work if you do X or Y as we have alot of freedom and choice to make.
I think with GA coming and posiibly more aspects of power, maybe HOTA Quake can get some polish on its visulas. it will get there. That said clearly so emergency changes for whatever reasons they want to do so, if player base is shrinking too much or whatever, some things we are gonna have to wait for…I wish we weren’t waiting so long for some, but boycotting the game and such only makes this process slower as they dmg control the player base etc. so yeah we have to wait and see now.
Maybe 3rd party sites already explain this or have different approaches that is is fine, this isn’t about the best numbers, this is about what you asked and that is the choices and the path to more effects in game, as i seek that out toom, this was my solution.
Good luck, hope it helps or sheds light for you and or others to more fun with D4.
That is all i try and do when i go on about this stuff, so i am not trying to be condescending i am a slow and self taught player and still learning so its just my thoughts and process. Sorry if it sounds otherwise.
Funny since they are reducing the reading, meaning the current was too much for most players right? it has been the thing i have been guility of myself and seen many others do rushing and going oh this sucks this is bad, nah usually not, they just dont read properly. I had to slow down myself and actually take the learnign curve to bring things online i thought was not punchy at first like rupture was one i did and saw mis used often.
So i think perhaps it is the other way around. Players rush D4 and think later, the reading is there, and people have complained about it lmao. So hopefully blizzard doesn’t make it the D3 hit of 2016 lol. Where reading doesn’t matter, just green up red down big number better, bick frost or fire game. Exaggeration ofc to make a point.
[quote=“LohanCohan-2130, post:1, topic:153714, full:true”]
- Character progression is defined by finding better gear (with more fitting affixes), by progressing in the skill tree and later by progressing in the paragon board. I got a feeling that gear/affix wise the devs are on the right track with
[/quote] Skill Tree & Itemization both yes
My reading comprehension says you’re a highly original independent thinker, and really just too smart to be playing this game. Happy?
the tree should be expanded
u are forced to take a basic that maybe dont even use
then u take 1 skill , 1 forced option and the it opens to 2 options
i call it “options” but far from it.
completely agree with OP.
The tree needs to be expanded upon to make inclass diversity fun. Right now its lacking too much. Ofcourse the item revamp will help. But we need an expanded skilltree also or classes will always feel dated after a very short timeframe playing. The basis of the classes is too restricted, too narrow, and seriously lacks innovation.
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If you ask anyone who plays a fair degree of ARPGs, one of the issues with D4 (among things like itemization, boss fights, proper endgame) IS the skill tree. We have, effectively, less choices in the skill tree compared to the D3 rune system.
I want to play Puncture. Dump 5 points into it. Get the next one behind it and now, oh guys wait for it: Two choices! My god, I need to labor over this one. Choices choices choices.
The skill tree is bland, minimal choice, and frankly there arent enough skills in the game. There arent enough skills in the game to have tons of builds and playstyles. There just arent. And before you say "nah man you can choose tendrils or bone spear or minions or curse…yeah go ahead and make a build centered entirely around tendrils or curses. A lot of our skill choices are support skills, utility skills. Not the ones doing the damage. There are only a handful of damage centric skills and only a handful that are viable.
The skill tree, currently, needs to be tripled with choices. And I think Blizz should release a class-agnostic skill tree for everyone (not to POE size necessarily, but something everyone can spec into.) And it shouldnt be just +5 dex or +2% damage. Use the big boy brains and get creative.
Class agnostic tags: Projectiles, projectile size, Melee multistrike, melee arc radius, etc
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Yea it basically needs a full rework, along with paragon boards. Items first though.
No matter what they do there will be people who like it and people who will hate it. Rather than obsessing over mundane details I prefer to focus on what we have and how to maximize the effects.
Consider Itemization. People who were struggling evaluating gear hated having to comb through all the affixes but now they have to navigate through an even more complex crafting system. Are the people who most wanted change to itemization going to be happy? I have a feeling most will be even more unhappy. Me? I’m going to adapt and maximize as best I can…
It really doesn’t. Because it is just 1 piece of your character progression.
but we are still limited to our slots, so there isnt that much increase in whats possible with items alone. Except if we get another item overhaul(more affixes).
I wouldnt mind some increase in choices wherever they wanna put em. But i believe this game needs a lot more.
I still like my idea with skill-alternating sockets better as skill trees are too static and too big IMO. They also lack the surprise factor and not much useful as often as people tend to make it look like - i.e. not much meat on the bone
About time at least one of the games takes a more brave step and challenge that particular norm, think D4 is set for doing exactly that ATM