The 90% Problem

Let’s talk about ARPGs and a core problem in those without infinite* scaling. That’s the grand majority of them. We’re going to call it the 90% problem for ease but it has other references like the Infinity +1 Sword trope. We shall lay it out like this:

McPlayer is trying to perfect their character and they have the best gear they can get without being pinnacle gear. According to their spreadsheets they have 90% efficiency. McPlayer has been playing for 40 hours and has achieved this state, but what McPlayer doesn’t internalize is that the difficulty between the 90% state and the 100% perfected state is exponential in scale. They cannot conceptualize this. They “know” this through some form of consideration and logic but it doesn’t click and thus the emotional connection to the quest goes sour.

McPlayer is upset that 400 hours have passed since that 90% mark and they have achieved perhaps an increase of .1%, they can’t seem to upgrade their gear any further for their goals because the gear that would be the upgrade is incredibly rare in alignments. This is because at the 90% efficiency mark less than 1% of the gear will align to be a better fit no matter how much stuff drops.

This creates a problem for McPlayer who feels that they can’t progress any further (which is correct, by definition it’s so rare and hard to do so that it is effectively pointless) but also is playing the game to progress further so nothing is good because nothing fits their build even if the loot itself is not objectively bad. The drop tables fundamentally go to zero for them and nothing good ever drops even if the good stuff drops all the time; they could be inundated with legendaries (or whatever the best drop class is in said game) and feel like nothing is dropping at all.

So this occurs very quickly in D4, and slower in other games of the genre, but it always occurs. This is actually the end of the game, or character, or whatever because other than the deterministic elements there’s just nothing you can do about it and it becomes a matter of winning the lottery if you’re playing alone. You do have better odds of being struck by lightning than going from even 95% to 96% efficiency. The point of this is two fold:

  1. You’re not crazy when you say that the loot is no longer good. It isn’t. You can’t do better. After the 90% mark you have to go to the market to leverage the drops of the other players to progress with any meaningful amount of speed. So the emotional reaction that things suck is right, it does, but it does in all games of this type and it always happens; there’s not really a way to get around it and once you finish, you finish, but in D4 in particular you finish so quickly it’s not satisfying. Pun intended.

  2. You’re objectively wrong about the drop rates. They do not need to be higher. The odds that something you want happens should not be mistaken for the odds that something in general should happen. I think this is an emotional problem that cannot be fixed with a technical approach; in theory, no matter the game, you will get bored of the chase once you get a certain point and randomization feels like it makes it illusive.

I do think that D4 does something strange though in this regard. Not only is it quick to hit the 90% mark, which is unhealthy really because it’s far less than 40 hours, about 10 if you skip the campaign and are being lackadaisical, and it is an extremely streamlined game, but there’s also this weird phenomenon that I can’t quit understand: the pools are nice and tidy really; what I mean by this is the confusing presentation of “always good gear”, or the ability to get something that almost always helps you get to that 90% mark.

In other games for instance you might get gauntlets that have high armor but none of the affixes you want because the pool is 60 large and the odds of those aligning is low and many are niche or extremely situationally sensitive. D4 cut all of those out. You have a pool of 20 for your gauntlets let’s say, and of those 14 will improve any damage you do whether it be through increasing damage directly, giving crit chance, crit damage, etc. and of those 20 you get to roll 3 and none of them are duplicates so you’re really cutting out a lot of the potential fluff very, very quickly.

I’ve never seen it before in any other games and it’s a great lesson for the future developers in the genre: DO NOT DO THIS! If every drop is incrementally better up until the threshold where nothing is incrementally better the player never realizes the journey from 0 to 90 which means that they only experience the 90 to 100 which feels like a total slog. Now of course please disagree with me but I think that is technically bad game design. I think the major failure of D4 is that it erases an important part of the emotional vestment in the genre; you can’t fix this with loot, or end game activities, or anything else because as a technical flaw even if they did roll back to a point where they had more affixes they’ve kind of dug the grave.

Anyway, point is, the 90% problem will always exist so when complain about it, I get it, but it’s not something that can be fixed through technical application. You cannot get rid of it in any game. You can merely prolong the inevitable. The journey from 0 to 90 is what makes most finite ARPGs work and “fun” but after 90 they all stall out and throwing a bone at the system through maps or portals or end-game X or Y will just be a matter of personal flavor versus a technical solution to the problem.

*Infinite scaling ARPGs exist and they basically increase the numbers as you go down and through the dungeon as far as you can both on acquirable gear and the monster stats. These games are immune to this effect because, as you figured by now, you can always add +1 to a stat in those games and the monsters never quit getting stronger. The two, finite and infinite, are typically separate games; end-game activities don’t exist in infinite dungeons though so it’s not like “maps” or whatever after the campaign as the dungeon’s nature of being infinite simply is the campaign.

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McPlayer will probably come to the forums and vent (rightfully so) and then get shut down by McFanBoys.

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I can only agree.
This has been Blizzards issue in both D3 and D4 (and even later on in D2 with Runeword powercreep).
They cut out the main part of the game, and tried to build something around the 10% where everything goes to die.

The most insane example of this was the Full Set “gift” you got early on in D3 seasons. But it is everywhere in their design.

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LOL

Truth though. One of their favorite tools is “If you don’t like D4 then just dip out. I know I would and wouldn’t even look at the forums”. They do this because any negativity might cause others to start to question their favorite game of choice and lead to more players dipping. There is another factor which is sunk cost fallacy, and there are plenty here drowning in it.

The state of the game at the beginning of season one was decently awful and the only reason incremental changes started to take place was because of those complaints on the forums. The ones complaining got absolutely roasted by D4 cheerleaders, but then liked the changes afterwards…such as helltides. Did they address all the changes properly? Nope, they put their own little spin on them and implemented them poorly.

Most of the ones complaining are doing so to inact changes in the right direction because they actually want to see the game succeed…but the toxic positivity drowns most of it out. Most of those people that actually cared gave up, and dipped.

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This is true. The gift sets place you about 60-70% of the way into that particular build. Other items make up the other 20-30% respectively until all you need are replicas of your current gear with better stats.

Blizzard has seen that this formula works for their average player, hence why they’ve also double downed on it for D4. However they are alienating the grinders and those who can spend more time in the game on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis.

Now arguably these particular people may not be the majority. We don’t have the numbers, they do. So one can only assume it’s done on purpose to cater to those who may not play as often versus those who play more often but obviously stop playing much sooner because of it.

I won’t necessarily say it’s a good or bad thing, only that it’s different and caters to an entirely different audience. For some it’s a good thing they can gear relatively quicker and complete their objectives in a timely fashion. For others it just feels empty and meaningless, with no real sense of progression once you’ve hit the soft cap within so many hours.

Now if there were something to do once you hit that 90% mark, things may be different, but I couldn’t say. All I can say is that some people like it and others don’t.

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i mean, i cant blame them there. people STILL complain that mythic items are too rare for example.

not refering to you personally there, but obviously, there has to be differences between people who can invest 400 hours per season and people who cant.

for all i can say, d4 seriously is the most casual arpg so far. not as flashy as d3 (luckily), but literally anyone can play it, and feel good as long as they pay at least a little attention to their build.
but… if people compare with leaderboards, streamers and whatnot, well, i guess you can end up feeling bad. thats self inflicted then tho.

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This is what happens when the smarter McPlayer realizes the developers expect FOMO to keeps them pushing that extra 10%, only for said McPlayer to also realize that it will likely never happen, thereby replacing FOMO with IWMO (I will miss out), and quit.

followed by IWCBNS (I will come back next season) :smiley:

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Heh. Some will, some won’t.

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A turtle’s patience with the heat might last as long as the Kool-Aid stays cold.

It’s been said before by multiple people. D4 is great if you don’t have a lot of time to play video games in general. A couple of hours a night or even a couple of hours a week, it works well for that audience. It does not work well for anyone who can spend a decent amount of time on the game and wants more out of it.

It really comes down to expectations and how much time you think is adequate to spend in a game like Diablo. To your average player 100 hours is a lot of time. To the people who obviously have more time to play it’s a drop in the bucket.

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3rd trial wing btw. better wish me luck. else my computer might not survive it :smiley:

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You just explain the main issue of ARPG with other name, because the original name is “min-maxing”.

The unique solution to this is reducing the RNG, but, is cause the problem of cut down revenue, because player will not need 1000 hours to get the full BiS and that is not good for a AAA company like ABK or Microsoft games,service videogames in their perspective must extend the time player spend in the game, regardless is not fun or ir frustrating.

Other ARPG you just need less than 400 hours to get full BiS, and the majority are not service videogames.

So, you never gonna see this problem solved, wathever solution is not good in a financial perspective. I don’t remember how is called that document were shows how products are going, but, for D4 their focus is extend the time you play like I said.

You can pray for a solution that not affect their wallets if that work to you

Those other games aren’t marketing so heavily to ultra casuals.

The armory will help somewhat that once you hit 90% you can start working towards another build.

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Most of those players want to speed to endgame, and then grind there.

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And the problem is that only those people are willing to grind at all.

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id say the problem is that the people who dont want to grind should eventually play a game where they can mod the items they want into their inventory ^^

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Well they will not as they feel entinteld for games to cater to them. And insted will cry in herds on forums, that “the game doesn’t respect my time”…

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im telling you, im crying hard on “that other game forum” about simple qol stuff not being in a game thats released in 2024. im shocked. Eventually ill contact the authorities :stuck_out_tongue:

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Crying for a certain level of standard is different, than wanting to shape a whole game, so it is only more catered to your own personal preference.

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