Yeah, Nothing like getting the same unwanted roll 6 times in a row. good times for sure.
2 Likes
Certain tempers def feel “weighted.” You think you have 25% chance of getting something out of 4 options, but it is almost never the case. There have been times I rolled 7-8 times I didn’t get a 25% chance temper. There have been a couple of times it hit maybe on the first try or twice in a row but those are extremely rare circumstances.
Again, the argument against this would be, you’d need to roll a huge number times(like 1000+) to see if there is an equal distrubiton or not.
But my personal opinion, just like enchanting, more desired tempers()damage per dark shroud) are rare and useless ones(like the stealth damage in suberfuge expertise in damage tempers for rogue) and more common.
1 Like
OK I will Edit and make clear that “TRADITIONAL computers cannot…” sure maybe a computer connected to a physical machine, or a quantum computer can generate something that APPEARS to be truly random, but some researchers believe there may be patterns in current methods in use to do this.
Some posters here doubt Blizzard is using anything more complex that a standard C# Random function, so can you honestly tell me that you believe they have a physical machine or quantum computer running in their datacenters to generate “True” random numbers?
1 Like
Tempering absolutely has to be weighted. The results consistently and massively defy the laws of chance.
1 Like
same here, is tougher to get % movement speed compared to others mobility affixes. experienced it on 5 alts, have to put 2 pairs of boots and tempering them alternating to increase the chance.
If there are four possible tempers and only one is “good” then to say that it’s not weighted is just a matter of semantics.
3 Likes
Good point! Weighting hiding in plain sight lol
1 Like
Yes, the pool of affixes is part of the weighting mechanism. Tempering is just a way of giving you a very limited pool so that you have more chances to get want you want.
Everyone is expecting that in this limited pool, chances are equal for all affixes.
It’s far, far worse than that. Not only is there often only one in four tempers the range on the values is crazy. IIRC the damage range on two handers for Ice Spikes goes from +160% to +210% in 5% increments. So not only is there a 1 in 4 chance of getting the temper you want there’s an addition 1 in 10 of getting the value you want as well, so 1 in 40 chance. Maybe you’re happy with 205 instead of 210, fine… that’s still a 1 in 20 chance of getting what you want and you only get 8 re-tempers. Oh, and then you have to roll a second 1 in 20 chance of getting the second temper. The reality is getting a good pair of tempers on an Ancient is a joke. Ten rolls max to get a 1 in 400 combo. On average you’re going to brick 40 items trying to get one tempered the way you want.
1 Like
It really does not matter if it is weighted or not, the overwhelming conclusion as evident on these forums is that the Tempering system just does not feel good. You can argue all you want until you are blue in the face about if it is or isn’t weighted, what “bricking” means, or even that you have Tempering Scrolls coming (which only allows you to reset an item once).
All of that does not matter. It just does not feel good. The system itself needs to change. Masterworking isn’t fun due to the levels of RNG, but at least it is going to boost an Affix you want AND you can start over an unlimited amount of times. Albeit it might take a while, you are guaranteed to get the outcome you want eventually.
With Tempering, that is not the case. Just finding the Base Item with Affixes you want is a feat in and of itself. I am not even talking GAs and soon to come Ancestral items that adds even more garbage mechanics and levels of RNG to the game. Gating progression based solely lucky Tempers and MW without a congruent guarantee based on high levels of time investment is pretty lame - especially in Seasonal content that has a short shelf life.
1 Like
It definitely SEEMS like you get the same temper over and over especially if you do it quickly.
I know it is SUPPOSED to be RNG but it seems like if you let the temper animation go longer or shorter or if you quit and try again it seems to do a different result.
2 Likes
As much as I enjoy exploring the more technical side of the conversation I am inclined to agree.
At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is whether it is enhancing or hurting the player experience, and while a few people have said they like it (still not sure if they are trolling/being sarcastic or actually like it lol), the overwhelming majority of sentiment expressed is “This system makes my game experience worse”
2 Likes
Its RNG not semantics. If you have 25% to get what you want with 4 possible outcomes its not weighted. RNG is the backbone of all arpgs.
Exactly, it really is that simple. Adding a Temper Scroll is a band-aid fix for problematic game design. Not quite sure why they would not just make it an extension of the Enchanting system rather than this whole separate convoluted system with a different name.
Just have it work like that but with the Recipes to reduce the RNG. It would still take players quite a lot of time to build their items and get perfect rolls. You could even increase material cost based on ilvl and GAs to make it grindier but also more welcoming to starting players progressing in the game.
Because we all assume D4 is basically a newer version of the prior versions, still, it is not unreasonable to believe that some of the features that worked consistently in D3 and elsewhere are not dissimilar.
WEIGHTING - That stated, I would be surprised if CHD, CHC and other valuable per-build specifics, while RNG, have a lower % RNG than other affixes. Honestly, anyone who played D3 would likely notice it is not too different to how The Mystic re-rolled affixes on items. There’s just a limit to how many times.
I don’t know though…I’m not one to fall prey to wild speculations BUT! ever since I stopped skipping the animation, my Tempering bricking rate went from a dismal 73.8% down to 10.2%! I know, I know…it makes no sense AND! I’m pretty certain that more people will have the complete opposite experience…but maybeeeee?..for those so inclined and have the time…those few seconds might just mean you’d actually get what you want…who knows? 
To top it off, when it comes to Masterworking, I ALWAYS SKIP the animation coz I tend to get my desired stat upgraded when I do THAT! I swear, this game has gotten me all loopy!! 
3 Likes
Not played in months (maybe February was the last), but I became 100% convinced that tempering was either broken or there were undisclosed/deceptive practice in play. I don’t remember exactly how it was, so I will be off some on the specifics:
I have for example 4-5 weapons I want to just add % damage. I get 4 or 5 tries (cant even remember now) and each time while the screen tells me I have a 25% chance to get that particular one it ends up being 0%. On to next weapon, and again 4 or 5 Tempers and I end up with 0% success. Try again on 3rd weapon, and then the 4th…
So when I would temper 4 weapons x 5 tries with a supposed 25% chance to get the aspect I wanted, after 20 tempers and 0% success I begin to think that no, this specific aspect has maybe 5% chance? 1% chance? But not 1 in 4, not 25%.
Finally on my Necro there was some affix I was trying to get and just never could get it on an item. I no longer remember any further details other than I just gave up trying. Not a good sign. I think the ‘randomness’ needed to be tweaked to either truly be a random roll, or the screen needed to be more honest with a “You have 1% chance of getting this you fool”.
2 Likes
Please, oh please! I hope they actually add this feature and let THAT quote be in Mr. T’s voice!!!
1 Like
No. Merely stating computers are capable of true random. Its just we as humans choose not to use it for a variety of factors. But even pseudo random is random enuf. Its not like using pseudo random is going to make u roll a temper 6 times in a row. Its only going to affect very large tests in the billions or trillions of repetitions. The problem if there is one is with D4 code not Random number gen.
Except not everything is RNG. Leveling is linear progression for example. If this game was only Eternal, sure, having the current system whereby you could grind for years and never even see a GA4 Mythic or a GA3, Max Temper x 2 and Masterwork 12/12 hitting 3 - that could work. As it stands now, I think you would be hard-pressed to prove that even a minute fraction of the population can achieve that. By making Ancestral items even more Rare, you are basically negating the Temper Scrolls being added.
I personally think that GAs are stupid. Instead, item Rarity should determine the Minimum Affix rolls (Maximum Affix rolls should be the same regardless of Rarity). This makes finding a godly item more likely with a higher rarity and certainly once you see that item drop with a given rarity, you are guaranteed it won’t have an Affix below a certain threshold. GAs not only guarantee a Max Affix, they give a bonus on top of it. This makes everything else pretty much worthless and the Enchanting system borderline garbage.
Additionally, Tempering should function the same as Enchanting almost. Cost increases based on Item Rarity and Item Level. Infinite number of attempts and you are picking from a Recipe to narrow the RNG. Item Rarity determines the Minimum Temper Affix value as well.