Note: (I don’t know if “addictive” is the correct word, but I’m going to assume you understand what I mean. Basically, tempering doesn’t encourage you to keep playing.)
Edit: Note 2: I think tempering is 80% good. So I don’t want it removed. I just want it to be better.
A small connection of ideas occurred in my head today. (On the forum, not in the game.)
I’ve always argued that tempering doesn’t feel good, because it feels like you’re losing something (even though you never had it).
And we all know that stores, mobile games, casinos, etc. use various psychological strategies to make you continue spending money.
One of these strategies is to make you think you’ve already won/obtained something you haven’t yet. This motivates you to continue so you don’t “lose” what you’ve supposedly already won/obtained.
In other words: if you stop, it feels like you’re losing something (even though you never had it).
And here’s the connection… Tempering does the opposite.
If you’re unlucky (with tempering), you create the same effect when someone stops playing/shopping/spending money on something designed to be addictive.
So… tempering is very good at stopping addicts from playing.
Edit 2: Small conclusion:
“You didn’t lose the item, but the item lost all of its (market) value, so you lost something equivalent in (market) value to the original item.”
Imagine the devs saying: let’s do additive tempering, so players will play even more and give us more of their money. Let’s talk to the sales department psychologist to see how we can make it more addictive.
I can’t believe greed didn’t get in the way this time… so weird…
Tempering could be fixed easy with keeping previous rolls and more manuals drop so there is one per skill. Problem solved. Nothing bricks now but they want items to brick. They said so. It makes them hit metrics and engagements for you to ruin items and have to get them again.
i spent 40 ir so hours trying to find an ammy with +3 skill on it. Finally got it. First 7 rolls didnt get either of my desired attributes, reset scroll and 6 rolls later i still didnt have it, on very last roll i got the one i really needed. Not bricked by any means. But if that roll had gone the wrong way it would have been game over for me.
Searcged similar amount of time for a 2* 2h mace and finally got it, no luck this time tho, got the lesser attribute i wanted but not the main really important one. So yeah, not going to try any more.
S9 maybe.
They’ll fix it for realsies eventually, just have to keep reminding them how unpopular it is. There are usually half a dozen guys at most who will respond to these to let you know they think it’s great or that somehow they couldn’t do any better, while everyone else comes in to bemoan how irritating a system it is alongside the OP. I’m sure the forum watchers recognize the disparity.
This is a system for good items to be extremely easy to obtain. You can easily find a weapon with GA in the main status. Temper it and get what you want. Excellent or perfect items are practically impossible. And improvements are rare.
If you look at the history of D4 and player-driven outcry changes, most have been for the worst.
Recall things like Resistance/Armor. Players screamed that Resists did little. Dev solution? Nerf Armor. Hey look! Now Resists are meaningful!
Players thought overcapping armor was too complex. Dev solution? Nerf Armor and have a hard cap!
Players say Gems are boring because everyone just slots HP! Devs say, okay done! HP is gone, now you just get Main Stat, Resist All, and Armor as useful gems!
Players say AOZ unfair! Devs say… okay, removed! And no more leaderboards! Enjoy!
Players say… we don’t like monsters gaining levels! Devs say - okay! Monster levels are gone. Can’t have players fighting higher level monsters anymore!
And on… and on.
TLDR; Things can get worse. And usually do.
I don’t envy devs the task of working out what needs changing and what doesn’t.
Noise level isn’t always a good guide… look amongst that noise and there may be voices making more sense in some circumstances but they’re not crowing from the rooftops, campaigning on some topic or another to draw in parrots.
The thing with parrots is by definition, they’re not the critical thinkers. And so they haven’t necessarily assessed if the thing they’re parroting is coming from an informed and well considered source or just someone disgruntled who’s axe grinding and has some topic out of perspective.
I’m not saying that is or isn’t happening on this topic in particular but it does happen.
It gets worse. The nature of much internet conduct (avoiding inflammatory language) from research, is such that it drives out whole swathes of community perspective from the discussion and often it’s the more sensible portions of the community who have a healthy balance of things going on in life. It’s affecting the world, not just this title.
Devs absolutely need to factor this in and deliberately weight input they’re reading.
I hope devs are paying attention to the detail before embarking on major changes “driven by community”.
Taking this to its full resolution: that’s the original “5 affix” bloat problem which stimulated calls for a loot filter; so if your hypothetical scenario were to come true (which is deliberately inane, because you’re basically straw-manning) they’d be in the original position of being pelted with “loot filter” eggs & tomatoes… until they implement a loot filter.
T/MW was their sleight-of-hand last-minute way to delay addressing calls for a loot filter. It might have fooled most of the people for a short time (and some of the people for a longer time) but the assistant is now dead in the box and the audience can see up the magician’s sleeve.
But seriously, they achieved this “show’s over folks” punchline much the way OP describes it - through a nagging, deflating feeling. So the topic post is quite insightful IMO… though the devs probably already understand all this.
T/MW itself can be tweaked & grown into a system that makes sense and is fun. Other games have cleverer systems. These devs aren’t unaware of that. They could just crib ideas, it’s all the rave now. (But it’s yet another proof of the straw-manning.)
I don’t think it’s as ominous as that (though you didn’t actually propose any specific solutions or pro-Tempering/MW defenses… so, paradoxically, your post is a bit of that ‘noise’ that you’re warning against, no?). For this simple reason: better systems - cleverer, more fun, deeper, and more engaging - already do exist. And the devs are aware of what’s making the rounds in the industry, if they’re aware of anything at all.
Now, both the fact that cribbing is rampant in the arpg scene, and that the current T/MW system was explicitly a last-minute, improvised solution to address “affix bloat” at the end of S3… the devs are capable - and should be expected to have the skills/talent - to come up with a mature iteration of said ‘solution’. There’s no need to worry about the complexity of the task… we should be instead worried if such a basic creative problem, fundamental to their job requirements, is beyond their capabilities.
It is weighted against you to brick your items to keep you playing in hopes you will open the cash shop and make an impulse buy. It is a cheap no effort no risk tactic used by the incompetent.
You’re welcome to express your perspective, of course. Ominous isn’t a descriptor im going for either. Just assessing the challenges of defining a product that will be acceptable to the community and how distilling a community’s feedback can be challenging.
To the contrary, that is what I put up a couple of posts prior.
You refer to my words on noise. Quoted for convenience.
I’m speaking to the noise level that comes from a significant number of people all saying a similar thing.
That doesn’t automatically make it the view of the community. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t.
I didn’t propose a solution because I don’t find a problem with the implementation of Tempering. No problem? No solution needed.
My only desire is for Tempering to implement “Keep Last Roll” as the Occultist does. But that isn’t really a Tempering issue, it’s more of a “I want to exhaust scrolls and chances at potentially better”.
Functional wise I don’t mind the keep last roll concept for tempering.
Im curious what the devs think about the fantasy side of an artisan process such as enchanting that supports this and if or why the two should be different.
The difference could be simply it was done by two different people without a review for which is the better system for the game and a consistency consideration coming into the process.
It’s a solid question, but as I recall Enchanting had many of the same complaints that Tempering does now. It finally got some slight adjustments, but so did Tempering (via scrolls).
Some of the chief ones for Enchanting:
I have to use an external guide to see what’s available (not an issue with Tempering).
Rent is too damn high! Costs per chance escalated infinitely.
It’s impossible to improve a roll to max.
Weighted Rolls.
Too many affixes.
So I think minor adjustments to Tempering isn’t out of the realm of possibility. And I think devs have stated they are moving 5 Temper Scrolls to others to make 3 and 4 Temper lists. Perhaps standardizing them ALL to 3 would be in the realm of possibility as well.
