Skill Mutation without Legendary items

When I play the endgame (paragon farming), I don’t get the same feeling I got when I was gaining skill points.

Skill point allocation has a massive determination on how your character grows in power while paragon farming is just small incremental power increases with large ones coming at the legendary nodes and slot nodes.

After paragon 150 ish, the excitement for power seems to slow as experience increases to get to the next paragon level. At 240 ish, gaining a level is tough and the rewards almost seem to come to a stand still.

What I would like to see in the end game is 2 different reward system that keep players engaged into the game.

First one is a rogue-like system. Instead of using experience gain as the currency to gain a “level” in this system, a different consistent resource is gathered instead such as blood from fallen elites and bosses. Once you reach enough, you are presented with 3 choices: random materials/gold, random enhanced key, random enhancement.

Random materials/gold drops level appropriate materials and they can be from any activity such as socketing materials, crafting materials, or uber boss summoning materials.

Random Enhanced Key option gives you a random Nightmare dungeon key with a special affix that increases experience gained in the dungeon by 3x.

Random Enhancement option gives you a random codex power at a random quality or it can give you a Skill Mutation point.

This brings me to the second system and the topic of this post, Skill Mutations.

Think of this as a secondary skill tree but instead of unlocking skills, you use the point to pick the skill, you have already picked in your primary skill tree, to unlock for mutations. Once unlocked, you can apply a new drop/craftable mutation gem. Once inserted into the skill mutation slot, you can pick an effect the skill or passive already possesses and replace it with a new effect.

The new mutation gems can be classified as 4 options: element, damage, defensive, or stats.

The element gems replace the sacrificed effect to either replace the current element or add an additional element depending on the sacrifice.

The damage, defensive, and stat gems work in a similar manner. The defensive gems however can only replace a defensive or stat sacrifice. The damage can only replace damage and defensive sacrifices.

The stat gems can only be used on passive skills in the skill tree and replace its attributes. Say you are building an overpower build and want to replace the critical strike chance and critical strike damage of a passive to Overpower and a damage multiplier. Throw in a stat gem and it keeps the trigger condition but replaces the effect condition to overpower and damage multiplier.

Element gems can replace all sacrifices however when replacing a stat sacrifice from a passive, it keeps the trigger condition and gives you an increase to the element damage for a short duration as its effect.

Only 1 mutation gem can be active and slotted into the mutation tree per skill/passive. Legendary aspects that change element type can be repurposed or removed with this mutation system.

I think this consistent random reward coupled with skill mutation would keep the endgame exciting longer. Especially during the long grinds to the next paragon level after 240 paragon. This would also help give veterans more tuning knobs to create new builds.

While mutations do offer more power or defense, it comes at a sacrifice to the skill’s/passive’s original designed power/defense. Mutations can be considered a side grade in that respect. Average players that just care about the primary skill tree can still get great results while advanced ARPG players can spend a lot longer theory crafting and building out their builds.

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What you want already exists in POE 2. I think D4 may have its own system.

I know PoE2 has its own version of this but it doesn’t hurt to ask. Changing what skills do is a very player choice kind of system.

Some may ask how you balance that sort of thing. The answer is you don’t. You balance everything thing else but skill mutations because no matter what combo you do, you are tailoring your choices to be more effective for your particular build.

Yes, but we can have our own systems in d4. For example, a 6 frame in paragon that only changes the skills or a tree of parallel skills, etc. We can have our own systems.

I’m all in for new ways to add some flavors to the current skills. We don’t necessarily need more skills, but we need to be able to change the skills we currently have.

Right now, Rogue aside, only a handful of skills (Mostly Necromancer’s) have something to change their damage type and VFX, and it’s mostly done through Uniques. Sure, most skills have aspects that change something (larger aoe, two projectiles instead of one, that kind of thing), but it’s almost always about doing more damage.

They either need to introduce more uniques for every skill that would change how said skill works (in the same slots they currently are in, maybe 2 per skill), or to come up with a new system to alter our skills without the use of uniques (which would be easier. That would also mean changing the uniques who provided those changes).

With all its faults, it’s something D3 did right with its rune system. You want a Frost hydra? Go for it. You want a fire using Barbarian? You got it. You want your summons to deal fire damage? You can (Witchdoctor at least IIRC).

Things is, with each new layer of system, unless it’s quite simple and override a current one, we’ll end up with even more imbalance. For this to work, they’ll have to seriously tune down the multiplicative bonuses we have so that if something ends up stacking too many bonuses, it doesn’t end up being 100x stronger.

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Yeah D4 can have its own system. This is why I explained it in greater detail as it’s not an exact copy from PoE2. Or else I would have just stated cited their system and given no details.

6 frame paragon is lame. People ask for more frames because they want the old unrestricted access to all plates for 7-8 glyphs. Only way that would work is if they nerf the current glyphs back to 21 levels as the legendary glyphs add more power and size. Currently I like the 5 frame limit. Adding more frames also defeats the purpose of having an independent system that doesn’t rely on paragon points. There were 2 reasons for this suggestion. First was the change how skills work, and the second was to add excitement at the endgame because after paragon 240, the grind is slow and the dopamine hits come nearly to a halt as gaining the remaining experience to finish is halfway complete.

Having a tree of parallel skills sounds lame as well. Where is the choice? That actually sounds closer to the POE2 system than mine. I been playing a lot of Hades on Steam lately and it sounds as lame as the mirror with purple and green passives. You hit a button on the side of the passive and it cycles to a green passive. Hit it again to cycle back to a purple passive. Can only do it in his room in “town”. That is probably the lamest customization of a skill I have ever seen in my gaming life. If it weren’t for the rest of Hades being good, I would have complained about that customization. Diablo 4 has a lot of boring qualities. Namely that loot just rains down so much from the open world green zones in the current season, I have to teleport 2 times to collected all the legendary items that drop. That and the game has a ton of bugs and glitches from a half assed patch. I teleport and I glitch and never load. Have to restart the game 3-4 times a play session. There are others but I’m not going down that rabbit hole.

Point is this game needs better customization, even if it is only for a side grade skill alteration system.

I would like to add that the renown system needs changing as well. Not necessarily the structure of the system but the reward system. I think it would be a great “bounty board” like system if they took the current rewards and made that the halfway marker and implemented seasonal bounty board like rewards at the end. If you keep going, you get caches and unlock special perks in that region like cheaper prices or increased cosmetic drops. Something that keeps rewarding you as you help out that region.

I know no one likes doing renown but that’s because D4 team made it mandatory with skill points and paragon points as the rewards. As much as I have shouted for them to be removed and replaced, all they did was make it a one and done and abandoned a perfectly good system. Dumb mistake but whatever. I’m still hoping for a revamp to renown to make it better and to roll those skill points and paragon points into the leveling up process. They can also make the skill/paragon points (from the old renown system) a legacy reward for an account that completed it and make it into a legendary chain side quest for new accounts to complete.

Will blizzard do any of this to make the game better? Probably not. They already milked enough money from people. They don’t need to put any effort into their formula.

Formula: new season add open world zone activity, a small renown system board for season activity tracking, season dungeon maps with existing assets, a power progression system that has different names and effects but is a copy paste from previous season systems, and finally a quest to explain it all. New season starts? Copy paste and change names, skill effects, and add new art to battle pass. This is innovation?

Sorry for the rant but I still care about making Diablo 4 better. Thing is only way to get blizzard to listen sometimes is to stop playing and supporting. Then they start rolling out everything you want in the game.

Yeah I agree element/damage types are relegated to certain classes and the primary element is physical damage. I think it would be cool to be able to change that. Fire barbarians can see more of a spotlight. Lightning, Shadow, Ice are cool as well. Could add Light as an element as well that gives a chance to stun or blind every hit.

Like I said though it would require a rework on some uniques and aspects that already provide that benefit but it would be worth it.

Does skill alteration add damage? Yes. However it only adds damage if you sacrifice something to give it more damage. Namely defense. As long as blizzard keeps defenses like armor and resistance important in the endgame, I don’t see much sacrificing defense for more power as top builds just be one shot at the highest greater rifts.

Besides the paragon system and Tempering/masterworking, what other power progression or customization is there at paragon 240+?

I don’t think adding a skill customization option is going to break the house of cards. It’s probably the last thing they can do to add customization so they should make it more highly customizable than the others. Just my opinion.

It wouldn’t be a normal paragon frame, it would be a special one. With several nodes that change the abilities, like your cold abilities are now fire abilities. Reduction of cooldowns, etc.

  • Another way would be another layer for the items, like corrupting items 2 GA or more. That way you could add powers that improve the abilities. Another way I see them already doing it is reaching level 5 of the abilities to have more power. This could be expanded to level 10, level 15. This would give special value in the end game to hit the MW and reaching level 20 of new cold could create ice auras on enemies that when they die could release new cold ones. I like this idea
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However Blizzard chooses to implement Skill Mutations, I just hope it isn’t lame like a 1 button flip/change. There needs to be Thorough player customization.

I want a Lin Moyu Necromancer that can cast Soul Flame (mutation from Blight) that ignores defense to do percentage based green fire damage. Be able to have up to 12 Skeleton Warriors and 8 Skeleton Mages total at the sacrifice of an Ultimate Skill. Golem can turn into Undead General that auto buffs damage of skeletons and auto heals skeletons (overrides Skeleton Priest). Undead General active skill is to have skeletons prioritize the target you select like the D3 Necromancer skill.

Soul Copy would be too OP though. Ripping the soul out of a Boss to bring it in as a 3 min Summon with an hour CD would be cool but way too OP.