I see the idea of not removing temper limits as feeding into the idea that the item hunt should always be ongoing, and if it you get stuck with a sub-optimal roll, just use it and keep hunting, and if you get stuck with a bricked roll, oh well too bad start over. My argument is that it would not remove the grind at all but make for better QOL in the moment.
First off, it makes no sense that enchanting and masterworking are essentially, deterministic along a long enough timeline, but tempering is somehow exempt from that.
Being able to re-roll temper limits infinitely should just be a loot sink (gold and/or mats,) same as the other two.
Thereâs no good reason against this, in my mind. Bricking a good item is an awful feeling and can actually turn people away from the game.
And the people calling others whiners, saying why would you expect to have a perfect item right away? Thatâs nonsense.
An upgrade has to have good affixes on its own AND not replace important affixes on the item you already had that you canât cover with other gear. Meaning even a great upgrade make actually be a downgrade until you find a couple other pieces of gear that make up for what you are losing. So finding what you want AND being able to use it is already a grind in its own and may require additional farming before it can even be used.
On top of that, itâs not like people are going to see a perfect item drop with all greater affixes day one and wham bam thank you maâam they have an easy BIS. Even a great set of gear is STILL going to be replaceable with better items that a diehard player is going to want to grind for (much like D3âs primal ancients.)
TL, DR: Removing tempering limits puts it in line with enchanting and masterworking and would not remove the notion of taking weeks to find a BIS item for those that really liked masochism already.
So with enchanting and masterworking thereâs a penalty for rerolling or resetting. Enchanting the costs go higher up to a cap. Masterworking you lose all the materials you just spent trying to get an affix boost you want.
That being said, what is your proposal for Tempering? If they got rid of reroll attempts completely, theyâd have to compensate with another deterrent of some sort. Higher costs to reroll seems to be the most obvious here, however the costs are only Materials and not actual gold to reroll a tempered affix. Wouldnât be hard to fix I imagine if they added gold to reroll, but just throwing it out there is all.
Thatâs basically what I would expect, making it a mat and/or a gold sink. Ideally one that caps out like enchanting does now, but still means yes, you will eventually get what you want, but it might take a significant amount of resources before RNG smiles on you.
The item is not bricked, just different from the one you wanted.
It is no different from finding an item with other affixes than you wanted.
It should indeed be the same for those too.
Enchanting and masterworking should not be endlessly rerollable.
Something like 10-20 rerolls on enchanting, and ZERO rerolls on masterworking (since it can only make affixes go up, there isnt really any way to âbrickâ it).
Completely different. Itâs an item that was good, and could have been great, but now no longer can. Even if you still use it, that can be a very dissuading feeling for some, and the dopamine rush of getting these opportunities will eventually vanish and drive players away with enough bad luck.
Youâre welcome to your opinion, but we donât all have hundreds of hours to throw away on a game just because âtaking forever to get a good item makes me a good player.â
You are more than welcome to throw away an item after 10 rolls if it isnât good, if thatâs how you want to play. Exercise your willpower.
There are plenty of ways to make it more likely to get a good item however.
Like, reduce those affix ranges.
Getting a low roll is fairly useless. Whereas getting a different affix does not necessarily make the item bad. Merely good for something else (and âifâ there are truly useless affixes, then that is its own issue of course).
Why do you feel the need to have everything handed to you without even having to try? It would completely take away any sense of reward and progression and the game would feel worse because of it. Stop suggesting bad ideas because YOU are too lazy to actually put effort and time into something.
Thatâs not what heâs saying at all. However with the previous system of just Enchanting you could potentially get a great item if you rerolled enough times. You can still do the same thing now.
Masterworking allows the same thing. Albeit at a high cost, you just lost all of those mats.
So logically speaking how would allowing tempering potentially infinite rerolls like the other two systems be any different? Now granted it doesnât bother me either way, Iâm just playing devils advocate here, but Iâm interested in the counter argument against it that doesnât involve insults being hurled at the OP.
So is there a point were people stop whining for the game play to be simplified so much that there really isnât a point anymore in playing? Why not just play the game? At the point where it is just a mindless assemblyline process what is the point?
The counter-argument is the game is becoming way too easy and itâs suggestions like OPs that ruin the overall experience because people are afraid of a little RNG. There is nothing wrong with having to actually grind and work for something that should be endgame and actually take effort to get. Yes, it sucks to get bad RNG 5 rolls in a row and brick an item, but it feels way better when you finally do get that perfect roll and can be proud of the items you have. If we make everything limitless, like enchanting, gear starts to feel less and less rewarding.
It doesnt feel better tho. Its just a let down untill the right item is aquired, and all that is left is a feeling of annoyance.
âWorking towardsâ a goal implies that rational decisions are made and acted upon; currently temper bricking is out of line with the design rational of all other upgrade methods.
My rebuttal is this is very subjective, for each player. Going from an objectivity side though, two systems currently allow infinite rerolls. Both of which give obvious advantages to the player at a cost.
Now the better question is, if Tempering didnât even have the limited amount of rerolls to begin with, and it came out just like Enchanting and Masterworking, would anyone even be complaining? I get the feeling no one would even mention it, having not known it was ever there to begin with. If the PTR didnât have it, no one would have said that it needed limited amounts of rerolls. However because we do have limited rerolls, itâs now become a bigger controversy amongst the player base.
Again, Iâm not saying Iâm for or against this change, I just find it interesting people are very quick to jump to defending a design choice before looking at the other side of things or alternatives.
It wouldnât.
But in this case it is Masterworking and Enchanting that should change to having a cap (either a hard or soft cap).
Making the item journey more interesting, by allowing for more diverse (aka. imperfect) items being used.
Sure they would. Just like people have said Enchanting should have a hard or soft cap ever since the game came out (where it initially had a soft cap).
Thank you, at least some one admits this. If youâre going to apply limits to one, you should stay consistent in that logic.
I donât remember this, I just remember people complaining that the costs were getting absurd to reroll. People wanted lower costs or a cap on the amount of money you had to spend to reroll, not the fact you could reroll infinitely. Iâd love to be proven wrong though, if you can find one post that asked for a cap on the amount of times you can reroll I will concede the point.
Not going to look through endless amounts of posts, though there are a few here. Some posts from myself (since that is what I searched after), as well as others, in each of the threads.
I concede the point then, there are at least 2 people advocating to either get rid of it completely (as in ESMâs case), or to put a cap on it (as in your case). Some people agreed with certain points of your posts too, but not all of your points.
Although you did say:
So obviously now that itâs âfixedâ so to speak, this is leading more toward your road of capping rerolls or getting rid of the system completely I would imagine. Which basically means weâre back to D2âs itemization, to a degree, obviously not completely.
Iâll just say I donât see it happening based on what the devs have said about giving more choice to the players rather then limiting it as the previous itemization did. Doesnât mean changes wonât come, but probably not in the manner of limiting options for player choice.
That being said, your opinion and suggestion on the matter, while valid, could easily be done today by yourself and others who think like you. You can give yourself the limit on items to reroll, without taking that choice away from other players. If they opened Tempering to allow infinite rerolls, again you could choose not to use that system, and just go with whatever affix the game gives you.
Iâm all for more options in the game, regardless if I plan to use them. I donât think players should be hindered by a lack of choices because some one thinks it wonât be as ârewardingâ or âfunâ or any other subjective adjective. If itâs an option people can choose to use or not use, Iâm all for it. If itâs a design that only allows one way to play the game, thatâs going to get stale real quick for the player base.
Thatâs completely irrelevant and doesnât invalidate the point that you personally could set limits on yourself within the game without hindering those who currently have options of infinite rolls on Enchanting or Masterworking. The point Iâm making is IF, and itâs a big IF, they allow tempering to have infinite rerolling, it doesnât affect the way you play the game in the least. Now it might affect how you feel about the game, but it wouldnât prevent you from setting your own limitations within the game.
I have to ask though, currently, do you set limits on your own rerolls of an item? Do you only reroll an item 10 times for example then call it done?
If the answer is yes, then why would it matter that other people choose not to follow this limit?
If the answer is no, then why would you advocate for something you donât follow?
So that I would follow it?
Aka. the rules of the game.
This is on par with âif you think the game is too easy, the unequip weaponsâ thinking.
It does invalidate it though. The rules are the rules. The moment you make up pretend-rules for a game, it is no longer that game. Rules on how to engage with a game is the most fundamental pillar of gaming.