Reduce RNG in this game - Enchanting, Tempering and Masterworking feel like an unnecessary slot machine.
15 Likes
Itâs an âRNGâ bucket, and thereâs a âplayer controlâ bucket, and together they add up to âtime playedâ. They donât yet know how to make the 2nd bucket big enough to extend playtime to whatever the goal is, so theyâve been making the 1st bucket bigger & disguising it as #2.
Standing at BS âfeelsâ like player control at first. Eventually everyone realizes itâs the alternative they came up with for bloated affixes (post-S3)⌠they just added the bloat at the front end (in the form of bloat tempers & âbloatâ MW crits). It was a psychology experiment to buy time until they could think of a better way to make bucket #2 bigger. Idk if theyâve figured out a way yet. I think maybe DC & Undercity were supposed to be it, orâŚ?
Added: scrolls of tempering are the ladle to let you feel like youâre doing something by âemptying outâ the 1st bucket⌠so think of when it rains, and you empty out the bucket under your leaky roof, one ladle-full at a time, into another bucket. Good solution? 
and the glyphs if you cannot maintain 100% chance.
That said itâs the mats grind that makes it a strain, if you had more room to breath it wouldnât feel so harsh imo. Like the gold sink is a too high, that itâs a soft brick for no reason or benefit imo.
hopefully it will get better 
1 Like
1 - Enchanting is largely useless. The only purpose it serves is early game to try to reroll non GA Affixes to something you can use. Considering the escalating costs, this system is contradictory to have such a Gold and Material sink in place for what is really an early-game mechanic.
Why is it worthless? You cannot reroll GAs. If nothing changed with the current Tempering system, the best fix would be to do the following:
- Allow Enchanting to be able to reroll Greater Affixes. GAs will only be able to be rerolled into other GAs and Non-GAs can only be rerolled into non-GAs.
- Enchanting RNG needs to be greatly reduced and scaled down for Non-GAs. Considering GAs are part of end-game progression, keeping costs higher is acceptable, especially with deterministic outcomes.
2 - Tempering - Is really the worst thing. The levels of RNG are abysmmal and bricking items should not be a thing. There are two simple fixes here:
- Scrolls should be able to be used an infinite amount of times on an item
- You should be able to âSaveâ a roll by Tempering it on your Item. This would allow you to keep attempting to get a better roll or use a non-ideal Temper until you have enough resources and scrolls to attempt better Tempers. At any given time, you would be able to update the Temper.
3 - Masterworking - Probably the least awful of the 3 but requires a ton of grinding. The biggest issue here is you have to hit 3 consecutive MW Affix Rolls and have to completely regrind and work an item up from LVL 1 every time you re-masterwork. There are three potential paths here:
- Have the system be progressive allowing you to lock in incrementally. If you hit the first MW Affix you want, when you go to MW again, it would start at the first Hit meaning your item is MW 4/12, not 0/12 when starting over. This would likely change the path to have players keep MWing until they hit 4/12, then proceed until they hit 8/12 then finally 12/12. At any given time, you are only MWing 4 levels really.
- Separate General Upgrades from the incremental Level boosts. This seems to make the most sense from a progression standpoint. Once you have fully upgraded 12 levels, you will never have to upgrade that item again. The only thing you are rerolling for is to hit 3/3 Boosts in a row to any given Affix.
- The 3rd option is to make absolutely no changes to MWing. Instead, the Enchanting system could be used to Reroll the 3 Affixes that are boosted. Players would MW 12/12 and you might not hit the Affix you want 3/3 times leaving you to have to Enchanting 3 times successfully. You might hit once and only have to Enchant twice, or hit twice and only have to Enchant once. Ideally, you hit all 3 times and do not have to Enchant at all. In this system, there is no restriction to how many times you can Enchant and allows you flexibility to try out boosting different Affixes.
7 Likes
I would actually agree with this one, on two conditions. Increase the price of tempering for each scroll you use. Also make the scrolls a lil more rare. I am swimming in the things, which most other people probably would be as well if they didnt try to get a max temper roll and instead stuck with a mid roll.
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It is fine if you are swimming in them. This makes Tempering more approachable for non-BiS items. The fact it is cost-prohibitive to start over with upgrades makes finding upgrades not very exciting.
For example, letâs say you have a GA2 item MWed like 8/12 and you hit one Primary Affix and a secondary Affix that is good, but not ideal. You hit both Tempers you need with decently high rolls (not perfect).
Now you find another GA2 item with Greater Affixes for the best Affixes you can get. The third Affix is Life per Second. So, you know you will need to Enchant it but your first step is going to Temper.
You strike out 3 times in a row Tempering a worthless Temper that does not even support your build. On the 4th attempt, you hit the right Temper, but it is a pretty low roll. Not awful, but not great and certainly a downgrade. Since you need that second Temper, you stop there and Temper your 2nd Temper Recipe. You swing and miss. Thankfully, on your last attempt you get something useful with a good roll, but it isnât the Temper you wanted.
Now you are sitting there looking at this item. Maybe it is okay? Is it an upgrade? Who knows but you arenât really excited. So you decide eh it might be better and go to the Enchanter. Millions and millions of Gold later your Non GA rolls what you want with an okay roll. Not the best, just pretty good. You have been at it messing with this stupid item that you thought was going to be a clear upgrade and you are tired, so rather than going for max, you just keep it.
Now you head over to put the Aspect you need on it and socket the stupid thing blowing more mats and Gold.
Then you go to Masterwork and go through everything just to hit the non-GA Affix twice. You just stare it at. Is this item better? Who knows. You put your Runes in it and your stat sheet changes but pfft the Stat sheet is so broken you canât even tell what it does equipping it.
So you venture off to try to push another Pit level only to realize that you cannot notice a difference really at all than before. The SB next to you is killing the map before you can even do anything anyways. All that time and investment for what? Oh, wow whatâs this!? A GAIII item! Well, darn 2 Greater Affixes you need but one is garbage.
What are the odds! Another GAIII, and this time, all the Affixes you need! Finally! You go back to town in awe if your loot. Head up to Temper and what was that? You whiff not getting the Primary Temper you need. Thankfully you have a scroll! So, you use it (yay the item isnât bricked for good!). You start over and hit your Temper you want with a below average roll. Rather risking it, you move on to Temper 2. In a streak of bad luck, you hit horrible Tempers. In the end, you are stuck with the worst Temper with a low roll that barely benefits you at all.
Sitting there in quiet frustration. You donât know what to do. Well, time to Masterwork but you need to grind for mats. After playing all weekend, you MW this item sitting in your inventory only to hit split Affixes and the bad Temper each time. The cycle begins again as you equip this item only to realize that yesâŚyou still cannot move up a single Pit level.
Frustrated, you turn off the game not even sure you want to come back. Loot doesnât excite you anymore. If anything, you are just in constant anxiety of the RNG deciding to deflate your balloon. Have no fear though, you can hop on and for trillions of Gold RMT 5 of the same duped perfect to attempt your Temper/MW ritual!!! Hopefully it works out.
^This is a pretty good example of why D4 itemization sucks.
6 Likes
This is absolutely spot on
1 Like
100% correct!
How would you change it?
I would have you get to choose the tempering. 3-4 slots per manual and It rolls and gives you the 3-4 affixes. One roll each for a non-ga and 1 ga, 2 for 2ga/3ga. No need for a restoration scroll. Grind is for obducite and masterworking!
I listed some easy ways to fix Tempering. In my previous posts on the subject, the overhaul I really would like is to get rid of Greater Affixes entirely, but that is a deeper topic.
Tempering would move to be more deterministic. Once you unlock the Tempering system, you would immediately have all Tempering Recipes at their base value. At various level increments, you would unlock higher quality Recipes, similar to how the Alchemist works. The highest quality of Tempers would however remain as drops.
At Max Level, your Temper Recipe value would be the lowest range of the current Max Rarity Recipe. For example, if Worldly Finesse is 41.5-55% Vulnerable Damage currently, at Max Level you could freely select Wordly Finesse Vulnerable Damage at 41.5%. If you wanted to Upgrade it, you would need to find an Ancestral Worldly Finesse Recipe. This would allow you to either Upgrade that Temper to 55% or select the Maximum Value for any other Worldly Finesse Temper appearing on that Recipe.
Tempers would no longer have a random range in this scenario and you pick whatever Temper you want. Durability goes away entirely so you can Temper items and re-Temper them an indefinite amount of times.
Scrolls would be changed to allow you to do one of two things. You would be able to Imprint a Temper onto the Scroll to Temper on another piece of equipment or it would act as a Universal Upgrade to any existing Temper regardless of the Recipe. As a result, these Scrolls would be far more Rare and a one-time use consumable.
What this does is balance two different systems and removes the value range. You now have a deterministic method of Tempering mixed with RNG. RNG drops provide you with the highest value of Tempers but you will never brick an item.
This keeps the loot hunt going and Recipes and Scrolls become a valuable currency for those taking part in Trading especially. Players wonât be annoyed they broke an item and there is a distinct progression with only two values. You will either have in the example of Vulnerable Damage, 41.5% or 55% Temper. Not 43% or 44% or 54%. You will never end up with Damage Over Time if you do not want it either.
Fixed.
I dont know about that. Then what is the purpose of tempering?
Customising your items.
1 Like
I like the fact that you are removing a layer of rng; as you said there is too much in this game.
I also like the temper values being at lowest first then finding manuals howeverâŚ
So how rare would the high level manuals be? High level D2 rune level rare and trade-able? Or would the rarity depend m on the percent?
What are your thoughts instead of finding the higher manuals, the temper on it increases by how much you use that weapon? (Like the barb class mechanic) if you change the temper, you start over at the lowest and have to play to build it up or find another item. It keeps the loot chase and you get incrementally stronger over time with a bit less rng.
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What I learned from PTR is that even with unlimited items, golds and mat, tempering and MW was still so boring and never really felt good. Im all in for any changes that makes it more like crafting and far less like straight up gambling. But I doubt it as its a perfect break point and can stall you for days just to move along one item. And when we dont quit in droves, why change it as it clearly works as intended.
RNG and increase your grind just like every system? I mean, Masterworking and Enchanting can be done an infinite amount of times. The likelihood you hit what you want at the value you want is low. Why does Tempering need to be different?
I tried to find a cut-off point that would capture the whole monstrosity - but itâs your entire post. Written from experience, I can tell. Concise & comprehensive.
It should be taped to every devâs forehead, so when they greet each other at the office they have to read it. Eventually one of them might get it.
But I wonder if they already do⌠not sure which is worse as devs: not playing the game enough to get it, or having oneâs hands tied bc of lack of freedom/resources or lack of motivation/skill.
I think having a lot of slot machine is ok, only if blizzard also gives the player enough tools to offset it by certain degree. As in some control.
I think the scroll of restoration was a good approach to that, not perfect but it is something.
Also, with increase drop rate ancestrals, you likely wonât feel as bad when you do brick an item, as you know you will likely find something better soon enough.
Yes, exactly, Might as well cut out the loot bloat and make tempering infiniteâŚ
I mean, this reworking of everything is out of control. we are not as smart as we like to think.
I HATE tempering, get that out of the game, or make it so i can keep doing it until i find what i want, Iâm over grinding for so long to find a 2/3-star item and then bricking said item with the stupid tempering system. âHereâs a good item for you⌠oh but you got the wrong tempers so just throw it in the bin and grind for another 20 hoursâ
Get out of here with that crap, fix the system. Itâs horrible.
Yes, I had to go back through this whole message and take out the swearing before i could post it.
Edit: Oh and scroll of restoration? Nah, still crap, just make it more expensive or somethingâŚ
All three have completely ruined the game. Half an hour or more trying to get what you need and spending hundreds of millions of gold and mats only to walk away with bricked gear? The RNG system is a complete joke. Casual players like me. Playing since Diablo I, will never see high pits, T4 bosses, etc. because we canât get the affixes we need. Iâd rather pay 50M for a guaranteed enchant/temper/masterwork rather than 500M for a slim chance that the RNG gods bless me. Fix it, rework it, or get rid of it. The system is the absolute worst part of the game. I would dare say 90% of the player base are not Robâs, Raxâs, Slaydraâs, who play all day every day but rather casuals that play a handful of hours a day or every other day. Get it together Blizz.
Just wasted 250 000 000 gold trying to roll skeleton mage mastery on a pair of gloves. Failed. All that gold, puff its gone, faster than even the speed my money irl disappears.