Please remove the RNG crafting system

The current crafting system feels overwhelmingly horrible.

When a piece of loot drops, I don’t feel excited about it, there’s no dopamine hit at all, not even when its an item that would be perfect for my build or a even a mythic, because I know the item wont survive your RNG based crafting system.

When I finally find a great 3 GA drop that fits perfectly with my build after 100 hours of grinding for it, I don’t want to feel excruciating anxiety over whether the item is actually going to be useful because I might brick the item to tempers. I don’t want to feel like quitting because after master-working or enchanting for the 100th to 1,000th time I still haven’t gotten the outcome I want. I don’t want to spend more than five minutes (let alone the usual hour I have to do right now) staring at a crafting menu, NOT playing the game, and watching the resources I spent so long earning get erased with nothing to show for it.

at no point during an item customization system (that your crafting system is) should I feel like absolute garbage as though I wasted my time and effort to be rewarded with nothing.

This season I have already spent over 2.5 billion gold on a single item while enchanting only to not get the affix I want at the value I want.
This season I have spent over 100,000 obducite on a single item while master-working only to not triple crit the affix I want.
In the past, while tempering, I bricked over 100 items in a single season trying to get any kind of upgrade.

your crafting system has caused this would be die hard fan to flat out QUIT playing for several seasons because of the shear rage I felt towards end game crafting. I even skipped the release of vessel of hatred.

When a friend finally convinced me to give diablo 4 one more chance for this season, I had hoped to see the RNG crafting system replaced with one that lets me just pick what I want so that it felt good to play your game again. instead, I am met with the same negative emotions that made me quit last time. So I’m done, after my friend gets bored of this season, I’m going to quit and never come back until this is fixed. I’ll probably try your competitor “path of exile” instead of your next expansion, at this rate. If you check my purchase history, you’ll see that I’m quote “one of your whales” since you obviously care more about my money than my time, my enjoyment, or my dedication.

As a former game’s designer myself (quit because of sweatshop conditions and THE virus), I understand what it feels like to receive criticism without suggestion on how to fix it, so if I was in your shoes, below is how I would fix each issue I have currently:

Tempering
Problems: player can brick an item turning good loot into another piece of garbage. player cannot choose which affix from a tempering manual they want. player cannot manipulate the value of the rolled/chosen affix.
Short Term Solution: make the scroll of restoration be applicable to a single item an unlimited number of times.
Complex Long Term Solution: as short term solution plus treat tempering manuals as aspects are currently being treated. tempering manuals drop as though legendary items. an affix in a tempering manual would have a range of 1 to 10 for example, and each time the same tempering manual is found, it raises the floor value closer to the ceiling value. so at 2 of the same tempering manuals the value would be 2 to 10 instead of 1 to 10 and so on. you can keep your random chance between affixes on the guarantee that the player can eventually get the affixes they want at max value. also, put in some code that checks what the previously rolled affix was, and make the next roll NOT that affix.
Simple Long Term Solution: let player choose the affix and whether the affix is maximized, however the price to temper increases by a multiplier based on whether player chose one or both. for example a 10 times multiplier to the price if the player chose the affix, but not to maximize the value, or vise versa, or a 100 times multiplier (10 by 10) for the player to choose the affix from the tempering manual AND for that affix to be maximized.

Enchanting
Problems: Greater Affixes cannot be rerolled into other Greater affixes, effectively removing the enchanting step when a GA is involved. Affixes are weighted such that some affixes at their desired maximized value have an observed less than 0.1 percent chance of being rolled (usually the most desired ones, especially for amulets). player has no ability to influence which affix appears nor can the player influence the value of the affixes that do appear.
Simple Long Term Solution: make GAs be able to be rolled into a different affix while maintaining the GA status. non GAs still cannot be rolled into GAs as part of a huge dopamine hit is the drop of a multi-GA item. break affixes down into categories and have 1 affix from each category appear, example core stats and max health, damage, resistances, ranks to X, so on. should have about 5 to 8 appear at one time as well as the option to keep the previous affix. if player chooses to keep the previous affix, have that affix increase in value by one step until maximized. for example, if player player rolls 7 out of 10 on max health and player wants max health maximized, instead of player being frustrated max health isn’t being rolled, player just needs to keep selecting “keep previous” to go from 7 of 10 to 8 of 10 and so on.
Complex Long Term Solution: it worked for tempering, why not do it to enchanting? implement enchanting manuals that work the same way as tempering manuals do above or previously. this allows the player to choose an enchanting manual with 3 to 4 affixes and to roll those affixes. if above version of tempering manuals work, do the same for enchanting manuals.

Master Working
Problems: player has no way to influence which affix gets the big boost each time. player has to watch LONG animation or click a glitchy skip button EVERY time. player must take the item through 3 steps that do not visually reward the player and serve as a barrier to the big boost. player must pay an EXORBITANT amount of gold and resources to have the item reset. resetting an item sets the master working ranks back to ZERO instead of the previous step.
Commentary: I want you to imagine that you take your suit of armor to the blacksmith and ask them to reinforce it with more armor and when they give it back, the magic crystal that gives you poison resistance is bigger but there’s no additional armor. how fast are you going to demand that blacksmith not only give you a refund, but do what you told them to do in the first place? thats what I thought too. don’t charge the player to fix what the blacksmith broke, its not the player’s fault.
Short Term Solution: resetting is free (just front load the cost of resetting into the cost of increasing the masterwork rank). the player receives at least a half back refund if not a full refund on resources used to masterwork the item. include in the options menu an option that says “always skip crafting animations.” also have that option function properly (joke about the option being there but does nothing). resetting still goes back to zero while a long term solution is worked on.
Simple Long Term Solution: as with short term solution plus two different reset buttons, one that resets to zero (costs nothing) one that resets to previous rank (maybe costs something, prefer nothing). additionally, remove the filler master-working ranks, so when the item is worked on, the animation plays (or is skipped, as I prefer) and the results show +X% to BLANK affix, +X% to all other affixes. just add the cost of the filler ranks to the big boost rank. if you don’t want to remove filler ranks put it in the options menu an option that allows me to 1 click get to the big boost. if I don’t have enough resources to cross the filler ranks, either don’t let me click on the button, have a pop-up that says “you don’t have enough resources to cross all the filler ranks, do you want to go up to rank BLANK, instead?” or just assume I would say yes at the popup when I click the button.
Complex Long Term Solution: resetting is free. player can reset to zero or to previous rank. remove filler ranks combining their costs and bonuses with the big boost rank. allow player to choose which affix will get the big boost, but player must spend additional resources to do so.

Greater Affixes (GAs)
Problems: most premade builds have requirements listing a GA in a specific stat on a specific piece of gear in order to function properly, the way you have designed your game indicates your target audience are casuals that maybe have 1 to 2 hours each day to play (7 to 14 hours a week) those players don’t have time to GA and loot hunt. additionally, it feels good when a 3 GA amulet drops, but when all three of those GAs are not for my build, I’m trashing the item and I’m horrifically disappointed.
my Solution: salvaging a GA item gives you GA dust (or some other resource name, maybe repurpose netheriron, since you took that out previously) a player can use GA dust to turn a non GA affix on a piece of gear into its GA version. for an item without any GAs maybe its 10 dust. for an item that has 1 GA its 100 dust. 2 GAs, its 1,000 dust, and so on. point is, you want to offer that casual or that guy with terrible luck the option to eventually build up to perfect gear and satisfy the power fantasy of having a truly perfect build for that season. it keeps the player playing because they know that with enough determination and effort even they can get the loot they see streamers running around with.

Aspects
Commentary: surprisingly I’m overall happy with the changes made to aspects so far, and only have one suggestion to make.
Problem: getting some aspects maxed out is incredibly difficult (especially the resource ones, or the one that your entire build revolves around) and you can often times come across the same aspect at a lower level than the same one you have stored and never encounter its maxed out version or a version higher than what you have.
My Solution: I can see that aspects have ranks, and I understand taking the highest, but what about adding them together? say you salvage the rapid aspect and now have 3 of 21 ranks (I don’t know how many it actually has. this is an example) then you come across an item with 2 of 21 ranks. when you salvage it, your new ranks should either be 5 (2 plus 3 is 5) or 4 (the item’s ranks are less than yours so only half its ranks are added to yours). so what if you have 5 ranks in the rapid aspect and salvage an item with 8 ranks. you’d have either 8+5 ranks or you’d have 8 ranks and ignore the previous 5. point is to make it so that eventually your aspect will max out even if you don’t find the max version.

Pinnacle Dungeons, Item Power Level, Sacred items, and Ancestral items
Commentary: previously you learned your lesson that sacred items were useless as soon as a player could get ancestral items. good, its always good to learn from your mistakes and I like it when you make progress. I do like the current difference between regular legendries and ancestrals. its clear cut with obvious differences. regs can only have up to 750 power, ancestrals can only ever have 800 AND they always come with at least 1 GA. so what’s my problem? well…
Problems: player already decked out in ancestrals still has regular legendries dropping. player can reach multiple plateaus in their progress as they discard regular legendries, then all items with 1 GA or less, then all items with 2 GAs or less, and so on. player has no way to tell the game everything below X is auto trash, except for magic and rare items, which become auto salvaged on torment 1 or higher. if player with all 1 GA gear (or greater) encounters a regular legendary whose affixes are perfectly rolled for the player’s current build, the player has no way to convert that item into an item that could become an upgrade for them. Sacreds were removed for being effectively useless, but what if we gave them a new purpose so that we could prop ancestrals to new heights without sacreds being useless. previously, pinnacle dungeons were annoying blockages to greatness, lets get them out of that roll and have them serve a new purpose.
My Solution part 1: regular legendries stop at 750 item power like usual, however both ancestral and sacred items would both be always 800 item power. the new difference between sacred and ancestral would be that the affixes on ancestral items are ALWAYS maximized while sacreds still rolling in a range like usual. sacreds don’t always roll with GAs, but lets keep that ancestrals always do.
part 2: lets have it so that an item can consume and destroy another item from the same slot to assume some of the properties of that item, like becoming that item’s item power, or status as a sacred, or status as an ancestral with the perks that would entail.
part 3: gamers previously showed you that you can get relatively the same effect by turning a punishment into a reward instead. previously, pinnacle dungeons were a punishment “you didn’t finish this dungeon, so no better loot for you” they were a barrier on the loot ceiling. so, lets turn it into a reward. reinstate the pinnacle dungeons EXCEPT make them actually difficult and the reward for completing them is to raise the loot floor. that way whenever you finish the first pinnacle dungeon, if an item would be a regular legendary it instead drops as a sacred. finish the second one? it would drop as an ancestral instead. third one? now all ancestrals drop with 2 GAs minimum. you could do this all the way up to making it so all items dropped are perfect so long as each dungeon was progressively harder than the previous. make these pinnacle dungeons an actual achievement to complete, especially if they have to be completed solo, because we both know carrying people is never going to go away.

I broke my solution into parts for that last one so they could be viewed separately or as part of the whole.

This post took me 10 hours to carefully think through and write (my hands are busted). I probably wont respond to comments made on this post. If this post never sees a blizzard employee, or a person who can actually implement any kind of change, then whatever. At least I felt like I could say something somewhere to someone who would get it. Sorry for the wall of text, I wrote it in MS word and it didn’t transfer well.

TL;DR Man gets angry at winter storm for not making a better video game.

2 Likes

Appreciate the time that went into making this post OP, im sorry however that you are shouting into a void.

Search tempering on these forums and you will see detailed, well thought out posts such as yours going unanswered time and time again. They continue to double down on their worst decisions, while telling everyone how much they are listening. Blizzard used to be a beacon of quality game design, now like everything else they only care about the bottom line. Blizzard died in the center of the chaos sanctuary along with diablo many many years ago.

3 Likes

TL;DR

If you are consistently bricking items than you are doing something wrong. I have not bricked a single item since the new scrolls were introduced. Last season I cleared Pit 150 and expect to do so this season. Instead of complaining maybe you should ask for help?

1 Like

Unfortunately when S4 came out everyone raged at how great it was so I doubt they are going to change.

Personally, I think it’s a horrible system that discourages upgrading. I just settle for the first decent 800 I get and don’t even look at stuff after that. 3GA - 4GA just get vendored without me even looking at them.

2 Likes

I don’t even see the point in grinding for perfectly tempered and masterworked 3GA gear. I’ve already completed the BP and I’ll 100% the journey as soon as I host 25 Duriels, maybe tonight. I’m not grinding to 300 paragon and I don’t give a crap about maxing my glyphs or anything like that because there is nothing else to do or rewards to earn in the game that requires that stuff. It all goes into the cash shop.

Once I finish the journey, it’s back to Grim Dawn to play around with DOTs.

Since they added the scrolls, tempering is okay. Crafting could use a few updates but overall it’s not that bad.

Enchanting weights are dumb though, should be random with 0 weighting.

2 Likes

alright lucky MF, lets go over the exact circumstances that led to me writing this article instead of silently quitting like last time, shall we?

firstly a bit about me, so you can understand the amount of time I’ve invested. I am a stay at home hubby, my wife makes our money, gives me an allowance, and only asks of me that our home remain clean. we live in a tiny 3 room apartment, it takes less than 30 minutes to clean, so the rest of the time each day I spend playing video games. when this season came out, up until last night I no-life-ed this game. I know its unhealthy, but I did it anyways.

so that means since season release, I have spent 8 hours sleeping, 1 hour or less cleaning, 2 hours or less on eating and bio breaks, 1 hour on making my wife happy with me, and the rest of the time playing nothing but diablo 4. so thats 12 hours everyday of nothing but diablo 4.

Season 7 released on Jan 21st, its now Feb 3rd, so its been 13 days of grinding for 12 hours a day, everyday. I looked up the best build for highest pit pushing for this season, maxroll says its blood wave necro. I looked up the fastest leveling build for necro, its minion mancer, so thats what I start with. within the first 12 hours I’m at level 60, torment 4, have swapped from minion mancer to blood wave and have already cleared pit 110 with garbage gear.

so I’ve been in the end game farming for good items for 12 days at 12 hours a day. 12 times 12 is 144. so…

at the end of 144 hours of grinding all the content I can get my hands on as fast as I can possibly do it, I’ve already cleared pit 150, most of my gear is 2 GA or better except for 1 piece. my amulet has been a piece of garbage with ok rolls, to hold me over until I find the holy grail of amulet loot.

at this point most people would say they beat the game, they got their build as high as its gonna go, and that holy grail amulet is never gonna drop, so might as well log off and wait till next season.

but thats not me. just at the very end of those 144 hours of grinding, I finally found it. a 3 GA amulet with plus to coalesced blood, plus to tides of blood, and plus percent to Intelligence. On the trading market I could have sold this item for 250 BILLION gold, but I want it for myself, so I head to a blacksmith to try to temper the item.

my luck is HORRIBLE and I know it all to well, even for this season. To get the gear I have right now, I’ve already bricked 30 some items after using scrolls to give extra chances. “HOW!?!?!?” you might screamingly ask? through the same process thats about to happen to this amulet. The gear I’m wearing I’ve had to infuriatingly settle for the affixes I want but at min roll with ZERO tempers left. I literally get the last affix I want on the last possible roll.

So instead of a massive dopamine hit from getting the item I want, with the rolls I want, and with the GAs I want, I am instead having an anxiety attack. I am dreading going to the blacksmith and am terrified my luck is going to brick the item AGAIN. I don’t feel good about this piece of loot even though the Dev team promised that it would feel good to get loot, let alone the loot you want.

I get 1 free chance for each affix and I already have a scroll of restoration prepared to be used on the amulet. I start by rolling each affix, with a legendary manual that contains the affix I want with the best chances to get that affix (move speed appears in a 4 affix manual and a 3 affix manual, so I would use the 3 affix manual as an example.) I don’t get either affix to roll with the one I want, even though I would settle for minimum rolls on these first tries.

so from here, the item has 8 temper chances. with a scroll of restoration? that doubles it to 16 chances total. do you now what happened? I rolled the same affix that doesn’t help my build at all and that I definitely don’t want SEVEN TIMES IN A ROW. I am screaming with rage for it to roll at least something else, to prove that it can when it rolls the OTHER affix that both doesn’t help my build at all and that I don’t want.

So now I have an item that is temporarily bricked with two affixes that don’t help my build and that I don’t want. but its ok, my friend says, you have a scroll of restoration, they say. so I take a deep breath calm down and use the scroll of restoration. I have 8 chances left to get the affixes I want. Remember from before that I will settle for it being the affix I want, but a minimum roll?

Do you think that during those next 8 chances that I ever saw the affix I want? because let me tell you exactly what happened. it sat there, and cycled, between affix 1 that doesn’t help me and I don’t want, affix 2 same as affix 1, it doesn’t help me and I don’t want it, and affix 3 same as affix 1, it doesn’t help me and I don’t want it. I NEVER saw affix 4, the only one that I want and that helps my build, let alone if affix 4 actually decided to roll on the item but it was a minimum roll.

The amulet that I should have been so excited to receive is now PERMANENTLY bricked with garbage affixes that actively do nothing for my build, even if I were to masterwork it all the way to max which is the only step left in the crafting process I can do to this amulet without ruining the GAs that the amulet already rolled with.

this happens to me EVERYDAY at least 2 to 5 times a day. So yes, I AM likely to brick HUNDREDS of items by the time the season ends.

so lets address your comment of “maybe you should ask for help instead of complaining”

At what point was I supposed to stop and ask for help?

before the start of the season I looked up 3 different guides on crafting and they all told me to do the exact same thing. start with tempering the item, don’t worry about getting maxed affixes or even the most desired affix. just settle for getting an affix that helps your build, even if it has a minimum roll. I reviewed these guides immediately before tempering the amulet in order to calm my nerves.

I did NOT get an affix that helps my build at all. I did NOT get an affix that helps my build but has a minimum or awful roll. I did NOT get the affix I want with a minimum or awful roll. All I did was watch 144 hours of grinding to find this amulet and all the resources I spent on it to temper affixes go to WASTE.

what possible help could you, or anyone on this forum for that matter, have provided to me to prevent my holy grail of an amulet from bricking?

PLEASE, I am dying to know the answer to these questions, from you or ANYONE at all for that matter. PLEASE tell me what should I have done differently. PLEASE, ANYONE, step up and give me examples and if you can prove me wrong instead of leaving a trolling comment disregarding my personal experiences (because obviously your experiences are more important), I will happily take down this post and this comment.

RNG does not belong in an item customization system, unless your goal is to cause pain, anxiety, and suffering.

TL;DR man 1 gets angry at man 2, because man 2 said “just put on a winter coat and deal with the winter storm like everyone else” even though man 1 is already using the heaviest, thickest, most durable winter coat that man 1 could find.

1 Like

You should be happier with this dream life…

Nobody has bricked 100 items in a season ever. Guilds havent bricked that many items. Are you not keeping any rolls unless its max? You are doing something dreadfully wrong.

1 Like

read on Brother. my luck is so terrible, I brick items without ever seeing the affix I want, let alone an affix that isn’t what I want, but will help my build anyway.

and you are right, I should be happy with a supposed dream life, but I wont go into all the details why thats not the case. hmmmm… put it this way, I’ve been looking for a job cause last 3 months of “allowance” has been spent on “food to keep us alive” instead of “my horrible crippling addiction to meaningless digital items like character skins or additional videogames.”

Your addiction to cosmetics could be the relief from other problems. Seems like you are unhappy about something else and games and cosmetics are helping cover it up. Fix the root issue with your unhappiness and bricking items will not affect you as much. I wish you wellness!

1 Like

It’s really not that bad. I bricked 2 whole items all last season and just bricked my first this season. Everything in between has gone very well. The only reason I just bricked the ring I’ve been after for a very long time is because it requires a perfect Damage While Beserking roll to reach my breakpoint, unfortunately that category also has 4 possible affixes, so I’m really not even that mad about it and expect it may happen a few times before I get what I’m after. Triple Crits are really not that difficult and can usually be done within anywhere from an hour to possibly a few days per item if you focus on farming for it.

1 Like

I appreciate the share of your experience, just as much as I wanted to share my experience with my trash luck. how everyone receives the events of the game is going to be different, I understand that. I just want a method that gives someone like me who has trash luck and cant get the item to do what I want or even close to it, to have a better chance. to be able to come away from the game feeling happy and satisfied about the experiences within.

mine unlike yours have been terrible. thanks for reading anyways.

You fix this mostly with in game wealth, which comes from farming efficiency. Get a build up to easily farming T4 with minimal effort (possibly by choosing the flavor of the month club). Power farm bosses/other content, start trading, amass wealth, trade for the things you need and more boss mats. It will feel less harsh if you brick cause you’ll say “well I’ll just start posting for another one and hope someone has it”. Be willing to accept 1GA temp versions of what you need on Legendaries, they are much easier to find and cheaper. Then you’re temporarily up and running until you find the 2-3GA version or find it for trade.

Take advantage of Events. While the content involved with events is lackluster, you can earn A LOT.

During the Helltide event I sold hundred and hundreds and hundreds of those Gileon Brews. During the Goblin event I farmed over 2500 goblins, sold most of the stacks of mats, kept some, found 2 pieces I needed, sold the other good stuff I found. Has literally continued to fund me ever since.

eh. me and my friend like to play with a modified solo self found, where its an US self found instead.

it never feels good to me to trade for items, like wooooooo (sad trombone), some other guy somewhere else got lucky and I spent 150 billion to buy his luck instead of use mine. it doesn’t give me the same “heck yeah I got the thing I wanted” that I play diablo and diablo-likes for.

I get what you’re saying but the drop rates don’t justify what you want to do. The most efficient way is trading and efficient farming. I’m not saying don’t play your favorite build too and I’m not saying to spend all your time trading instead of farming, but you’re gonna have a better time if you occasionally open trade chat and copy/paste your iso’s there.

Edit: Remember, expecting Solo Self Found in a game that’s not designed for it isn’t going to work out in an enjoyable way for you.

I get what your saying and your not wrong. but I swear getting into trading for stuff is so prohibitively expensive, its almost as though bots are farming gold and selling it for illegal RMTs.

a good and honest gold farmer like me is probably only gonna be able to get that 250 billion amulet on a trade maybe once in the season if even once in a year, even with efficient farming. believe me, I have previously participated in the trading scene, but I found that it took too much time away from my enjoyment of blasting content. when it started to be too much about trading and not enough about actually enjoying the content in the game, is when I kicked trading almost entirely from then on.

I’m just wanting a better balance and for my experience to not be so… garbage.

The only items selling for that much are on diablotrade and people there ask ridiculous prices. In game trade chat is generally more reasonable. Also, given the new “raise the floor per ga” change on uniques, you can generally make a lot of gold easily from multi-ga unique drops because of the increased quality of the aspects.

It may not be what you want, but it’s what we have, and I’m just trying to help you have a more fun experience.

1 Like

Sold an item for 350B so yah its crazy but you have to go with the flow.

It was a BiS 2 hand mace for overpower poop necro.

Guy paid much of it in gems. Hope those gems are not dupes. Not my job to enforce fairness.