Please Reconsider Blizzard "Joe Piepiora: every class is a DPS class in Diablo"

Console Discussion
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Many players take this for granted but let me give the argument why the game shouldn’t be structured this way.

First of all if let me get it out the way that of course it’s fine that every class can be built to DPS and that isn’t that unusual.

However if you build the game so that DPS is the only viable play style it starts to dumb things down really quickly and also makes balance a bit of a nightmare. The reason is there’s only 1 objectively correct thing a character should be doing, and there’s going to be a build that does that more than the other builds. Players who want to try something else are just going to be hurting themselves or in some cases other people. In a lot of the content it might not matter if your build is the best one, but in portions of the game that are specifically designed for difficulty (the level 20 cap ashava is an illustration of this, although it won’t exist in the real game, there could be things at level 100 that are designed to be truly challenging to beat) players are going to be having to choose between using the “correct” meta build and doing the content, or playing the game they want and not doing the content.

It’s exhausting having a developer telling you from the get go (not in these words) don’t bother trying because it’s just dps.

Now this is simplifying what he said because he also mentioned survivability. But if the game is built around DPS, then survivability is just there as an “only as much as necessary” device. Like if you’re building a race car, some things are there to hold the car together but after you fulfill all the minimum requirements any additional weight on the car is just slowing it down.

The same could be said for survivability and DPS builds. which means players are quickly running out of choices of how to play the game well, which dumbs down the experience immensely. sure you can choose to play the game a more difficult way (believe me I’ve done a lot of this), but this isn’t exactly an intellectually engaging experience because you still know the answer and you’re just choosing the ‘wrong’ answer on purpose.

The ideal game would have a wealth of options from players to choose from and Diablo 4’s multiplayer settings give us an opening to have this work out well. Having content where it can be efficient to have one player tanking damage while the other player hits harder gives players more way to play the game. Obviously healing is limited at this stage, but it’s another avenue for blizzard to expand on.

Support was in the game strongly for barbarian and just got nerfed strongly. I can’t really argue with this because I was arguing myself that shouts were the best mechanic for the ashava fight (buffing 12 players is extremely effective) and I don’t mind blizzard balancing but please make sure support classes are a valid way to play the game.

Summons are a cool way to diversify the play experience but if summons are just extensions of DPS then again you’ve dumbed things down really fast.

I’d encourage blizzard not to use limiting philosophies as a guideline for how they design the game. Look into content ideas that reward other playstyles as well (Ashava was a blast, but every world boss doesn’t need a timer. Try other things such as limiting how much players can die while opening up the time limit for killing the boss. )
Let’s not make every play through variations of the same thing or it will get repetitive fast.

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There is no holy trinity setup here.

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this is a thought ending cliche in the diablo community. 1. ive played healing and tank characters in diablo 2 and 4 that were viable.
2. even if blizzard structured the game so they aren’t viable, that doesn’t mean they should. The exact purpose of this thread is to argue that they shouldn’t structure it that way and you haven’t given a reason why they should.

edit in fact I addressed your point in the first sentence “many players take this for granted”. nothing in your post falls outside of the scope of that first sentence.

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Viable is not the same thing as being a must-be or unavoidable. Like you cannot do a dungeon without someone being setup as a meatshield to tank damage.

Knowing the common issues with finding tanks and healers in mmos, its definitely not a problem i want to impose here.

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oh yeah im cool with that. im definately not arguing DPS solo characters shouldn’t exist in diablo 4. im just saying it shouldn’t be balanced so DPS Is always the best build and world bosses shouldn’t always be structured to prioritize DPS. (Having a boss like Ashava is fine, it just shouldn’t be the only structure for a boss fight)

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As soon something becomes the easiest way to do something, then you will see people gravitate towards it. Thusly dps should always be the most efficient way to not damage the game.

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Ultimately the goal of the game is to kill things and that’s why DPS is the main focus. A player that is soloing the game needs to strike the balance between damage and survivability which is just enough to stay alive while dealing the most damage possible. In the end it’s all about efficiency.

A two person group has a different path to efficiency as does a 4 person or 8 person group. When you plan who is bringing what to the table in terms of support then you can make groups capable of DPSing the content even faster. A 12 person group with 4 barbs could keep up all the shout buffs infinitely if it is well coordinated for instance and mow things down with ease.

That seems to be the direction the game was to go however the traditional Diablo game is not played with large coordinated groups and so you need to give the solo and duo groups a path or preferably multiple paths to get there. No doubt a meta will emerge and many people will gravitate towards it. However meta only means most effective tactic available, not the only tactic viable.

There will also be a large group of players that pick whatever they think is cool and play the game for fun that won’t care about any of these tactics.

I think the game itself has struck enough balance to appease all the different groups of players. Will some have a harder time than others? Absolutely. Will that make it any less fun? That’s subjective.

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If you’re right then I have no complaint. There are many diablo players (correctly or not) will flat out tell you that DPS the only diablo play style. Joe’s quote makes it sound as if that could be a design philosophy that could influence how they structure abilities and content in Diablo 4. again Im not arguing that all the content shouldn’t be soloable (I don’t think they intend world bosses to be soloable but wudijo is doing anyway so maybe they’re open to that). I just think that other play styles should be on the table and blizzard should design the game with that in mind.

The problem with your last point goes back to what I was saying. If blizzard is going to make content that is designed to be maximally difficult then the various builds need to be balance or otherwise that content is only going to accessible to certain builds, which ends thoughtful and creative play experience. Likewise if content is designed to gatekeep certain play styles then when it comes time for the next run every player is just going to be thinking “which DPS am I going to make this time. I used the highest dps build last time. so I can either go with a lesser build or do the same thing.” It’s just a much more bleak and limiting view for a game to have then having a strong selection of builds and play styles that could have advantages and disadvantages in multiple ways

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I think it’s worse trying to balance if you have builds that revolve around things like support rather than what you said

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Unless kills are time gated as they are with group bosses you could build as tanky as you want and drag out the fight as long as you want through constant buffing and using your one basic weapon attack if you choose.

So long as you have all the time in the world to take enemies down then technically all support playstyles are in play.

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Different playstyles will emerge on their own. I’m sure we will see some form of a ZDPS build in the future. Just like D3. That type of build wasn’t intentional design, but just kind of happened through skill and item combos.

But possible support builds will already exist.

  • Barb Shouts
  • Curse Necros
  • CC Frost Sorc

These still allow for characters to have decent DPS but with more point allocation towards support. I remember one of the interviews from way back, they had mentioned that they want support to be a more active playstyle. You should be supporting by attacking.

This idea could be improved via items. Such as a power that could boost the effectiveness of the next Barb Shout by X% when you do X Dmg Type to enemy or use X category of skills. this could even be a stacking effect. 5% up to 25%. Meaning you have to do more of X dmg type or use X category of skills more.

Other items could grant support buffs to skills. Like a sorc could have an item that grants themselves and allies a movement speed buff when you freeze an enemy.

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As soon something becomes the easiest way to do something, then you will see people gravitate towards it. Thusly dps should always be the most efficient way to not damage the game.

what ruins the game is only having one “easiest way to do something” that every one knows about. what they should do is have multiple and varied ways of playing the game that give no super obvious advantage so that players can enjoy multiple play throughs that actually feel different from each other

Unless kills are time gated as they are with group bosses you could build as tanky as you want and drag out the fight as long as you want through constant buffing and using your one basic weapon attack if you choose.
So long as you have all the time in the world to take enemies down then technically all support playstyles are in play.

No im saying having bosses that limit deaths instead of time (possibly even you die you’re out). They can make the mechanics of the boss so it isn’t too easy to game it, but of course Ashava is gamble too and every souls boss. They’re kind of intended to be defeatable by using strategy and tactics. im just proposing having bosses that prioritize different strategies and tactics

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Different tactics and strategies are all well and good, however keep in mind trying to get 12 random strangers to understand the fight mechanics for a fight as basic as Ashava was hard enough.

You could maybe introduce prison or chain mechanics where you have to break your teammates free during the fight which just changes the DPS focus from one target to another.

It’s also possible that they incorporate mechanics like they have for the open world events into world boss encounters like where you have to stand in one spot and deal enough damage to apply a debuff or break an invulnerable phase of a boss fight to break a shield but again it still turns into a different kind of DPS race.

The point being, random groups fighting a boss will have a hard time coordinating if you introduce mechanics that are overly complicated or convoluted. Those sort of things have a space in a raid environment in an MMO, buts it’s not something you necessarily want here. I enjoy those sort of encounters myself, just not in a Diablo game.

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Go play a holy trinity mmo and stop trying to put that mess in Diablo.

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Honestly I probably won’t do too much group play. Maybe I’ll give it a try and enjoy it IDK.
But I hate that in group play if you have some sort of buff or support ability DPS classes will expect you to follow them around and support them and your own personal enjoyment is not important. And I am someone that mained a priest in WoW and loved healing.
But also really loved Warhammer Online so when the free server appeared I jumped at the chance to play it again. Had a lot of fun leveling up playing a 2H Black Orc and either getting control of scenario objectives or just getting in a healers face and harassing them and causing them stress. Actually had one guy come over from order side just to whisper me and tell me how fun it was playing against me because all the healers were freaking out about how I was always on top of them.
Get to endgame and DPS all start whispering me that they expect me to follow them around and guard them (where I take half their damage). Cursing me out if I won’t support them (and this is multiple DPS all expecting me to choose them to support). Basically my only purpose was to become their personal totem and I am expected to just follow them like a puppy even if they are doing idiotic things. Logged off and haven’t been back since.

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I already played tank and healing in diablo 2 which to me was the best Diablo so far before 4. No one put you in. charge and this forum is for feedback. If you can justify your position for why it’s a better game design choice have at it. otherwise. you’re just 1 other opinion

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You didn’t play a “tank” in D2. Sorry to burst your bubble. You can make a tanky character, but there was no kind of aggro control or anything like that. As for healing, there were many ways to heal yourself and minimal for a group. Everything about D2 was doing dps. Anything else was just a gimmick.

Everyone is “just 1 other opinion.” Just because you have opinions and feedback doesn’t mean it’s worth a crap.

The Diablo series is not an mmorpg. This whole series is ultimately about loot finding and dealing more damage. Your idea that the gameplay would just get stale is proven wrong simply by the popularity of the series. This game doesn’t need to change styles just because it would make you happy. There are other games that already do what you want and they are built that way from the ground up. Go play one of those and you’ll be much happier than trying to redesign a game not built for what you want to do and whining because it won’t change for you.

If you really wanted tank/heals in a Diablo game, you would be much better suited for D3 where there are actual taunts, group shields/heals, and full builds for those things. And those were just gimmick builds there too.

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Just because you’re a new player who never heard of tanking until World of Warcraft came out isn’t my problem. Blizzard added skills to help attract agro in world of warcraft because these were good skills to help with tanking. Tanking existed long before these skills existed. Sorry that you’re new.

edit if you want an example for a newer game to help you understand let me give you one. Overwatch is a PVP game and players can attack any character they want at any time. Overwatch still uses tanking tactics where a player with better survivability leads the group and soaks up more damage. I don’t even play overwatch but since I know what tank means I am able to identify a tank when I see one. As someone who doesn’t understand what tank means you are unable to identify a tank when you see one.

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The Holy Trinity of Team Roles:

1. Tank
2. Healer
3. Damage Dealer

Some might argue Crowd Control was an unofficial fourth member of the Trinity, but that would be a misnomer, as Crowd Control is just another form of Tanking.

I believe the days of the Trinity are numbered … and what Diablo 4 is proposing is the future of gaming (at least, for these types of games).

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Hard no from me because then it puts too much focus on multiplayer. The holy trinity concept can’t die fast enough.

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