On the Significance of Skill Trees in Gaming

Skills in games, in particular ARPGs, represent your actions. They are what you do and at the very core of a game’s appeal - the A in ARPG stands for Action. They are unlocked and empowered progressively in a structure commonly known as a skill tree.

FIXED CHOICE SKILL TREE

This is the type ubiquitous in gaming. It gives you a full set of possible selections but limits your choice to a fraction of them. Path of Exile’s active and support skill gems are different in form but not in essence.

Pros

  • Traditional, familiar to both players and developers.
  • Proven to work, both players and developers have an adequate handle on complexity and challenge involved.

Cons

  • Limited choice in combat.
  • Limited choice in out-of-combat selection/build variety. Because you need a “viable” set of choices in combat and have a limited tolerance for respeccing (not to mention cost in Diablo IV) there are skills or groupings of skills you wish to use, and could situationally, but practically can’t or don’t.
  • In other words, the ‘Play Your Way’ quotient is low. Variety gets stuck in the total set of options rather than what turns out to be your actual subset of options.
  • Expanding choice in combat involves utilizing more buttons which can overwhelm players mechanically, run into implementation issues (e.g. on console), and has a limit.
  • Somehow - rather inexplicably to me - in ARPGs this type of skill tree often results in gameplay revolving around one or two skills. I can’t really think of why this would be an intrinsic result, but it’s common. For some people this may not be a con but for others having a very low ceiling limits appeal.

After a few decades of ARPG gaming this skill tree type is both reliable and old. It is tried and tested but now the lack of novelty, compounded by probably inevitable skill reuse, makes the limited options it provides practically stand out more. ‘Play Your Way’ applied to the reality of Diablo IV, for instance, is an example of how marketing gets a bad rap.

From here on we get into possibly novel theoretical skill trees that have yet to be implemented in action-oriented gaming.

DYNAMIC CHOICE SKILL TREE

A dynamic choice skill tree breaks skills down into tiers or levels, not necessarily corresponding to power but this would be a common application. It is predicated on button remapping, or on skills buttons execute changing as you progress through its levels. So for example, a dynamic choice skill tree would begin at level one and the skills at that level would be mapped to the normal skill buttons. Once a level one skill is executed (or more, possible as a design option), the tree progresses to level two and the normal skill buttons are remapped to its level two skills. This lasts until every level of the tree has been gone through.

Pros

  • As choice is shifted from out-of-combat to in-combat more variations are practically possible. The ‘Play Your Way’ quotient is higher.
  • The increased dynamic thinking and challenge will be appreciated by some and improve their engagement or even attract them. Enemies could become more dynamic as well.
  • Many skills are possible to execute mid-combat on the same familiar buttons minimizing the mechanical challenge as well as incentivizing expansion of skill sets.

Cons

  • Greater complexity and a novel challenge are present for both players and developers with uncertain outcomes.
  • Balancing and readjusting the game.
  • Uncertain feasibility from a technical standpoint.
  • Implementation of more skills from a development standpoint.
  • Imposition of a level or order structure.

DYNAMIC DEPENDENT CHOICE SKILL TREE

Can be also thought of as a combo skill tree, this tree differs from the non-dependent choice type by making the available skills at a later level be dependent on the executed skills of preceding levels.

Pros

  • Can give players a greater sense of reward in their choices if a particular combination of skills they executed is effective.
  • Allows for a deeper dive into thematic, coherent, or personal playstyles. ‘Play Your Way’ quotient could be higher still as a non-dependent choice skill tree has less in-combat possibilities per level.
  • As this type of skill tree can include explicit variations it may facilitate conception and implementation of skills.

Cons

  • Can be more complex and more challenging to master mentally.
  • Can necessitate more skills.

So, we know that ARPGs are a now old genre that has experienced little innovation. In the grand scheme of things it’s not a terribly popular or successful genre either, a little on the niche side. We have seen how interest in Diablo IV has plummeted soon after its release. With a live service commitment, a lack of notable ideas, and PoE 2 about to enter the scene the path forward here seems precarious, although in corporate terms the game will likely make enough money through initial sales and expansions. But gaming doesn’t have a corporate origin, it has a spiritual origin. It’s not meant to make money for some financial butt-wipes first and foremost, it’s meant to be good.

I think if Diablo IV really wants to go for it the answer lies here, in the core fundamentals. The genre literally starts with “Action” yet ironically even many of its players freely admit the action part borders on brainlessness and mindlessness, constant repetition of an extremely simplistic repertoire that too often can be meaningfully reduced to the spamming of a single skill. They say reality is stranger than fiction. This is an example of that. It’s a power fantasy fit for room temperature IQ. That’s two standard deviations under the average. Somehow Diablo’s in it. It might as well come with one of those extending whistles (aka a party blower…) and a party hat.

I’ve drafted some examples for what these more novel skill trees can look like in Diablo IV. There are some general considerations meant to optimize their integration:

  • There’s no intention to replace the traditional skill tree but to supplement it, i.e. expand combat gameplay. Therefore, an entire tree of these types is meant to fall under one button, most fittingly one of the normal ability buttons with a longer cooldown on it. Four buttons are used for remapping (e.g. keys 1-4 or q-r) with one reserved for exiting the tree so you can access your other skills. The extra effort is mental rather than mechanical.
  • Now, many of us are very humble people, or very tired after work. We apply a standard of, “if I can’t play this after shooting myself in the head with a nail gun - twice - I’m not interested,” to gaming. Fair enough. These trees are not intended for you. Their parts will drop as items in the endgame. Don’t want them, don’t use them or even pick them up. You can play on a difficulty balanced without them in mind, e.g. World Clown Tier 4.
  • The endgame suffers from lack of progression and change, which most people refer to as itemization. Therefore these trees should be endgame content. Break them up into individual parts that drop as loot. You have something more to chase that’s meaningful and the effect is more than a math difference.

I’ve written two example first drafts of the dynamic choice skill tree concept. There are five levels possible, six total skills per levels 1-4, various containment structures that represent the tree, and inter-level automatic effects that can be slotted in too.

Tree Structures

Each Tree Structure has a cooldown equal to 5*levels seconds starting from the execution of the first action, not that I necessarily know if this makes sense. Maybe it should be a little more curved or increasingly higher at later levels.

Introductory

  • 1 level, 2 special ability slots

  • 1 level, 3 special ability slots

Intermediate

  • 2 levels, 3 special ability slots [per level]

  • 2 levels, 3 special ability slots, 1 common inter-level effect

  • 3 levels, 3 special ability slots

  • 3 levels, 3 special ability slots, 1 common inter-level effect

  • 3 levels, 3 special ability slots, 2 common inter-level effects

  • 3 levels, 3 special ability slots, 1 common and 1 rare inter-level effects

  • 3 levels, 3 special ability slots, 2 rare inter-level effects

Advanced

  • 4 levels, 2 rare inter-level effects

  • 4 levels, 3 rare inter-level effects

  • 4 levels, 2 rare and 1 legendary inter-level effects

  • 4 levels, 1 rare and 2 legendary inter-level effects

  • 4 levels, 3 legendary inter-level effects

  • 4 levels, 3 legendary inter-level effects, level 1 is of level 2 special ability slots, levels 2 and 3 are of level 3 special ability slots

  • 4 levels, 3 legendary inter-level effects, level 1 is of level 2 special ability slots, level 2 is of level 3 special ability slots, levels 3 and 4 are of level 4 special ability slots

Ultimate

  • 5 levels, 3 legendary inter-level effects, variations of special ability slot levels with the last reserved for two level 5 special ability slots
Rogue Skills

Level 1

  • Only Fans - Basic marksman skills are 3 projectiles in a spread each dealing 35% of base damage for the next 4 seconds.

  • Two-timer - Basic cutthroat skills apply twice on each cast for 4 seconds.

  • Combo Master - Basic skills generate 3 combo points for the next 3 seconds.

  • Habitual Evader - Gain two charges of Evade.

  • Reposition - Gain 40% increased movement speed for 3 seconds.

  • Stun Grenades - Drop a cluster.

Level 2

  • Bonus Imbuement - Apply the imbuement of your choice for a single skill use.

  • Agile - Use any of the agility skills. (Bonus Imbuement and Agile will be configured to one selection outside of combat.)

  • Malicious Concealment - Reduce the cooldown of concealment by 4 seconds and the next time you enter it dealing damage during the first 3 seconds will not break it.

  • Cluster Smoke Grenade - Smoke grenade fragments on impact with secondary explosions outside the normal radius.

  • Shroud Permanence - Dark shroud protective shadows are not consumed for the next 10 seconds.

  • Poison Trapper - Your next 6 poison traps have a 25% greater area.

Level 3

  • Assassin’s Escape - Enter stealth that cannot be broken by received damage for 3 seconds, gain unstoppable for one second, pass through enemies, and recover 35% health.

  • Charade - Spawn 4 shadows that taunt enemies, exploding after 2.5 seconds for moderate damage, and applying vulnerable for 2 seconds.

  • Heavy Payload - Shoot a projectile that explodes outward in front of you dealing moderate damage and stunning enemies for 3 seconds in a large cone.

  • Recovery - Standing still without attacking generates energy, up to 100 over 3 seconds, and applies 75% damage reduction. Lasts 6 seconds, maximum energy recoverable is 150.

  • Eviscerate - Deal severe damage over time to an enemy.

  • Zipline - Climb an adjacent wall or terrain feature, shoot a connecting arrow to another wall or terrain feature within 20 meters, and zipline across dropping cluster bombs that deal moderate damage and slow enemies by 25% for 8 seconds.

Level 4

  • Vault - Evade becomes Vault, gaining an extra 200% range, unstoppable, and three charges. You deal 10%[x] more damage for 2 seconds after vaulting and drop caltrops when you vault. (Could be limited to say 20 seconds in addition to the three charges.)

  • Corral - Gain 100% movement speed and lodge a series of 5 connectedly roped daggers into enemies. If a loop is closed pull the rope to cluster all enemies caught within the perimeter, stunning them for 2 seconds and making them vulnerable. Lasts a maximum of 10 seconds.

  • Butcher - Gain 100% movement speed and lodge a series of 5 individually roped daggers into enemies. Activate to pull the daggers dealing substantial immediate as well as bleeding damage to every enemy in their paths. Multiple daggers can be used to impale a single enemy. The daggers are then flung back out and pulled back in a second time in between their previous connections. Lasts a maximum of 8 seconds.

  • Rogue Cannon - Taunt enemies from afar, become immobilized, and begin shooting individual projectiles the direction of which has to be pointed at an extremely rapid rate. Collectively the projectiles can mow down enemies and knock back within a certain range but do not pierce. Lasts 6 seconds.

  • Kinetic Momentum - Dash. Gain 40% damage on dash as well as 10% length and width. You have 3 seconds to dash again. If you kill more enemies than you did on the previous dash the bonuses are applied again. If not enter a 3-second cooldown retaining accrued bonuses. Repeats and lasts a maximum of 12 seconds.

  • Hell’s Kitchen - Cover your boots in tar, gain 50% increased movement speed, 25% damage reduction, and you can move through enemies. You have three flaming arrows to ignite contiguous areas of tar. Tar slows enemies by 50%. Ignited tar deals heavy over time damage and slows enemies by a further 15%.

Level 5

  • Strafe - Rapidly shoot at enemies (animation - this is from Valla of Heroes of the Storm) dealing devastating damage over time across much of the screen. Lasts 7 seconds.

  • Incensed - Gain full energy, reduce energy costs by 66.6%; double attacking, general skill performance, and cooldown reduction rates; increase damage by 20%[x], and increase movement speed by 40%. Lasts 7 seconds.

Barbarian Skills

Level 1

  • Arsenal Warm-up - Perform a rapid series of single-target attacks with all three weapon types.
  • Frustrated Fury - Get a free use of a core skill that deals 50% damage but gives you fury equal to 2x its fury cost.
  • Internalized Weakness - Remove debuffs from surrounding enemies, doubling the effects they would suffer from these debuffs if reapplied for the next 4 seconds.
  • Homicidal Ideation - Newly inflicted bleeding damage is increased by 66.6% over the next 4 seconds.
  • Evasion - Give Evade unstoppable for 2 seconds.
  • Amplified Shout - Extend duration of active shouts by 2 seconds.

Level 2

  • Psych-out - Give yourself berserk for 5 seconds.
  • Fortified - You are fortified for 5 seconds.
  • Overpowered - Your next three core and weapon mastery skills overpower.
  • Run - Increase movement speed by 100% for 5 seconds.
  • Self-Immolation - Set yourself on fire, damaging close enemies, leaving a trail of fire burning and lighting enemies on fire, lose 40% of your health gradually, and gain 40 fury gradually over 4 seconds. (I literally hadn’t seen Wrath of the Berserker when I wrote this, but it should still be distinct enough.)
  • Uppercut - Swing at an enemy with your two-handed bludgeoning weapon, dealing moderate damage to them and launching them backward knocking down all enemies in the flight path and at the landing location for 3 seconds.

Level 3

  • Ancient Spear - Throw out a chain spear that inflicts serious bleeding damage to all enemies it passes through and pulls you to its end-location. If it ends on an enemy inflict double the bleeding damage to it. (Does not grant unstoppable.)
  • Basic Trained - Increase the speed of your basic attacks by 40%, they gain an area of effect and deal 80% more damage for 5 seconds.
  • Chosen Warrior - Execute a normal enemy, eat its innards, and restore 80% of your maximum health.
  • Deadly Assault - Run to an enemy and pummel it with repeated blows for severe damage, fearing nearby enemies. Target is knocked down for 3 seconds.
  • Pest Controller - Slam your two-handed bludgeoning weapon around you dealing moderate damage and stunning enemies for 3 seconds.
  • Furious Shout - Channeled over a maximum of 3 seconds replenishing all fury, granting 25% damage reduction for the duration, and granting berserk after completion for the channeled period of time.

Level 4

  • Elite Charge - Become unstoppable and rush at will for 4 seconds, gaining 25% damage reduction, pushing enemies with you, damaging them, then swinging through them for double damage and knocking them back.
  • Massacre - Take wide jumps forward from side to side, swinging through enemies with your two-handed slicing weapon dealing significant immediate damage as well as heavy bleeding damage.
  • Discombobulate - Sweep/undercut enemies around you with a chain slowing them by 50% for 10 seconds, spin a second time to collect them with a chain, then scatter the clump outward with your two-handed bludgeoning weapon for moderate damage and dazing enemies for 3 seconds.
  • Barbaric Simplicity - Basic attacking a particular single enemy increases basic and core skill damage by 20% stacking up to 200%. Lasts 12 seconds.
  • Kill Zone - Taunt enemies in a sizable range, gain 60% damage reduction, and deal serious splash damage around you with repeated blows.
  • Tactical Retreat - Gain unstoppable, run back recovering 40% of your maximum life, then run forward striking the ground with your two-handed bludgeoning weapon, rupturing it, dealing moderate damage, and stunning enemies for 3 seconds.

Level 5

  • Massive Earthquake - Strike the ground twice creating a far-reaching earthquake that pulses every 3 seconds, slowing enemies by 50%, making them vulnerable, and dealing moderate damage each time.
  • Sundering - Sunder the earth in a long line, dealing heavy damage and shoving enemies to the side, stunning them for 4 seconds.
Inter-Level Effects

Common

  • Extend duration of effects of following level special abilities by 10%.
  • Reduce cooldowns by 2 seconds.
  • Deal 5% more damage for 2 seconds.
  • Gain 20 energy. (for Rogue)
  • Generate 20 fury. (for Barbarian)

Rare

  • Extend duration of effects of following level special abilities by 20% or at minimum 1 second.
  • Reduce cooldowns by 5 seconds.
  • Reduce ultimate ability cooldown by 10 seconds.
  • Deal 10% more damage for 4 seconds.
  • Gain 50 energy. (for Rogue)
  • Gain 50 fury. (for Barbarian)
  • Increase elemental damage by 20% for 4 seconds. (for Rogue)
  • Increase bleeding damage by 20% for 4 seconds. (for Barbarian)
  • Extend ranges of effect by 20% for 4 seconds.
  • Increase damage reduction by 20% for 4 seconds. (for Rogue)
  • Increase movement speed by 20% for 4 seconds. (for Barbarian)

Legendary

  • Extend duration of effects of following level special abilities by 30% or at minimum 1.5 seconds.
  • Reduce cooldowns by 10 seconds.
  • Reduce ultimate ability cooldown by 25 seconds.
  • Deal 15% more damage for 5 seconds.
  • Gain 100 energy. (for Rogue)
  • Generate 100 fury. (for Barbarian)
  • Increase elemental damage by 30% for 5 seconds. (for Rogue)
  • Increase bleeding damage by 30% for 5 seconds. (for Barbarian)
  • Extend ranges of effect by 30% for 5 seconds.
  • Increase damage reduction by 30% for 5 seconds. (for Rogue)
  • Increase movement speed by 30% for 5 seconds. (for Barbarian)
  • The chosen ability of the following level gains a second charge.
  • The following level requires two abilities to be used.

I’ve also written one example first draft of a dynamic dependent choice skill tree. I bothered just with the skills here. There are a maximum of three skills per level possible, but the total set of skills can be significantly higher. Notice that the skills that will be available at a level are conditional on preceding choices. This type of tree may have different logic to how it’s delivered as loot.

Sorceress Dynamic Dependent Choice Skill Tree

LEVEL 1

  • Magic Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces and damages enemies.
  • Wave of Force - Discharge a wave of damage to nearby enemies.
  • Mirror Image - Summon three invincible illusions of yourself that taunt nearby enemies for 3 seconds, when they expire. (They don’t do anything more, even move, aside from what is described.)

LEVEL 2
If Magic Missiles preceded.

  • Ice Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces, chills, and deals cold damage to enemies.
  • Fire Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces, burns, and deals fire damage to enemies.
  • Electric Missiles - Shoot a fan of missiles that pierces, static charges (might be a new status effect I just made up), and deals lightning damage to enemies.

If Wave of Force preceded.

  • Wave of Frost - Discharge a wave of cold damage to nearby enemies and coat the ground in frost chilling enemies.
  • Wave of Fire - Discharge a wave of fire damage to nearby enemies and set the ground on fire burning enemies.
  • Wave of Electricity - Discharge a wave of lightning damage to nearby enemies and electrify the ground static charging enemies.

If Mirror Image preceded.

  • Image of Health - Inhabit a random Mirror Image becoming unstoppable, invincible, rooted, losing the ability to exit the combo tree as well as any sort of recovery and use of potions. Gain 50% of your health points up to maximum.
  • Image of Casting - Inhabit a random Mirror Image becoming unstoppable, invincible, rooted, losing the ability to exit the combo tree as well as any sort of recovery and use of potions. Gain 50% of your mana up to maximum.
  • Image of Toughness - Inhabit a random Mirror Image becoming unstoppable, invincible, rooted, losing the ability to exit the combo tree as well as any sort of recovery and use of potions. Gain 25% damage reduction up to maximum possible for 5 seconds after exiting the Image.

LEVEL 3
If Ice Missiles preceded.

  • Glacial Collapse - Deal a sheet of cold damage in a large, wide rectangle in front of you.
  • Ice Pick - Shoot a large shard of ice that impacts the first enemy it hits for heavy cold damage and its immediate surroundings for moderate cold damage.
  • Snap Freeze - Freeze chilled enemies in a large cone in front of you for 3 seconds.

If Fire Missiles preceded.

  • Carpet Bombing - Rain fire in a large, wide rectangle in front of you, burning enemies.
  • Bunker Buster - Shoot a large flame ball that impacts the first enemy it hits for heavy fire damage and its immediate surroundings for moderate fire damage.
  • Thermobaric - Immobilize burning enemies in a large cone in front of you for 3 seconds.

If Electric Missiles preceded.

  • Lightning Storm - Deal lightning damage in a large, wide rectangle in front of you.
  • Smite - Shoot a large bolt of lightning that impacts the first enemy it hits for heavy lightning damage and its immediate surroundings for moderate lightning damage.
  • Short Circuit - Stun statically charged enemies in a large cone in front of you for 3 seconds.

If Wave of Frost preceded.

  • Frostbite - The frost-covered area applies cold damage over time.
  • Ice Breaker - Your weapon collects the frost and deals 3000% (or something very high) cold damage on your next basic attack.
  • Deep Freeze - Enemies are frozen in the frost-covered area for 3 seconds.

If Wave of Fire preceded.

  • Turn Up The Heat - The burning area burns harder.
  • Meteoroid - Your weapon collects the fire on the ground and deals 3000% (or something very high) fire damage on your next basic attack.
  • Fiery Torment - Enemies are immobilized in the burning area for 3 seconds.

If Wave of Electricity preceded.

  • Electric Ground - The electrified area applies lightning damage over time.
  • Shock to the System - Your weapon collects the electricity and deals 3000% (or something very high) damage on your next basic attack.
  • Taser - Enemies are stunned in the electrified area for 3 seconds.

If Image of Whatever preceded.

  • Frosty Departure - The Images cast a spell to apply cold damage at a lower intensity and freeze enemies around themselves for 3 seconds and disappear.
  • Fiery Exit - The Images cast a spell to burn at a lower intensity and immobilize enemies around themselves for 3 seconds and disappear.
  • Group Shock Therapy - The Images cast a spell to apply lightning damage at a lower intensity and stun enemies around themselves for 3 seconds and disappear.

LEVEL 4
If Magic Missiles preceded.

  • One-Two Punch - Prime Wave of Force.
  • Spread the Punishment - Prime Mirror Image, the three Images are placed and taunt nearby enemies for 3 seconds when they expire.
  • Warp - Prime Warp. (this roughly corresponds to the slow time D3 ability)

If Wave of Force preceded.

  • One-Two Punch - Prime Magic Missiles.
  • Spread the Punishment - Prime Mirror Image, the three Images are placed and taunt nearby enemies for 3 seconds when they expire.
  • Warp - Prime Warp. (this roughly corresponds to the slow time D3 ability)

If Mirror Image preceded.

  • Vector of Aggression - Prime Magic Missiles.
  • Locus of Aggression - Prime Wave of Force.
  • Warp - Prime Warp. (this roughly corresponds to the slow time D3 ability)

LEVEL 5
If Primed Magic Missiles.

  • Refer to element type used in the already executed ability, provide corresponding level 3 Magic Missiles options altered only in the removal of conditions in the crowd control option.

If Primed Wave of Force.

  • Refer to element type used in the already executed ability, provide corresponding level 3 Wave of Force options altered by combining elemental damage and ground effect in the first option, altering Wave of Force as a location targeting ability and concentrating damage at the point (not sure if this ability in general shouldn’t be location targeted rather than around the player location) in the second option, and applying crowd control effect directly in the third option.

If Primed Mirror Image.

  • Refer to element type used in the already executed ability, provide corresponding level 3 Mirror Image options.

If Primed Warp.

  • Dangerous Territory - (straight from D3 with supplementation and duration reduction) Invoke a bubble of warped time and space at your target location up to 60 yards away for 4 seconds, reducing enemy attack speed by 20% and movement speed by 60%. This bubble also slows the speed of enemy projectiles by 90%. Apply the element of the already executed ability. Freeze for 2 seconds and cold damage for duration, immobilize for 2 seconds and burn for duration, stun for 2 seconds and lightning damage for duration.
  • Friendly Territory - (straight from D3) Invoke a bubble of warped time and space at your target location up to 60 yards away for 4 seconds, reducing enemy attack speed by 20% and movement speed by 60%. This bubble also slows the speed of enemy projectiles by 90%. The player’s health and mana recovery rate is increased by 500% (or something significant) within.
  • Adverse Territory - (straight from D3) Invoke a bubble of warped time and space at your target location up to 60 yards away for 4 seconds, reducing enemy attack speed by 20% and movement speed by 60%. This bubble also slows the speed of enemy projectiles by 90%. Enemies within are vulnerable and deal 10% less damage.

LEVEL 6 (these are combinations rather than permutations - order doesn’t matter)
If Magic Missiles and Wave of Force preceded.

  • Cast level 2 Wave of Force with corresponding element type with level 2 Magic Missiles with corresponding element type shooting in every direction outward from the Wave of Force edge. If I just made up the static charge status effect that’s a bit of an issue but whatever. Maybe have a second charge of this.

If Magic Missiles and Mirror Image preceded.

  • Plop the three Mirror Images taunting nearby enemies for 3 seconds, have the three level 2 Mirror Image options to select from, and shoot level 2 Magic Missiles of the corresponding element type from each Mirror Image at the point of your cursor or something (once).

If Wave of Force and Mirror Image preceded.

  • Plop the three Mirror Images taunting nearby enemies for 3 seconds, have the three level 2 Mirror Image options to select from, and each Mirror Image casts a level 2 Wave of Force of the corresponding element type.

If Magic Missiles and Warp preceded.

  • Cast the Warp you cast at level 5 with level 2 Magic Missiles of the corresponding element type shooting from its center in every direction once. There might need to be some tuning but I’ve spent long enough on this post.

If Wave of Force and Warp preceded.

  • Cast the Warp you cast at level 5 with level 2 Wave of Force of the corresponding element type inside.

If Mirror Image and Warp preceded.

  • Plop the three Mirror Images taunting nearby enemies for 3 seconds with smaller level 5 Warps around them. You can teleport to each Image mapped on a button once, in essence consuming it, until they expire.

So in my opinion you go to the roots of gaming, particularly ACTIONRPGs, grow new trees, and infuse this ludicrous genre with some desperately needed innovation. Diablo might be on suicide watch trying to figure out how to put himself out of his misery so that you stop trotting him out every several years to be bested by endless hordes of human imbeciles.

9 Likes

I hope your fingers are not cramped or tired.

5 Likes

no thanks. the skill tree and playstyle currently stays true to arpg and is exactly what it should be. if you want a different playstyle perhaps try a different genre?

3 Likes

I take my time.

Here’s someone who’s no fan of innovation. That’s fine, the game is kept intact just for players like you. This is supplemental, an optional endgame system. You’re a player. There are others who should be taking a broader view and recognizing that “staying true to arpg” is very much not exactly how things should be decades later. Like these guys:

5 Likes

It would seem to me you’re just not a fan of the genre. Perhaps you should be looking more into the rt rpg’s. I don’t know what the current crop of real time rpg’s is these days, but there you can have your real time combat along with much deeper dungeon/world crawling along the lines of BG 3.

I am not looking for a different game to play… what is it with some of you people and genres? Do you think of the whole world like this, in fixed labels that don’t change? It’s like damn God handed you “ARPG” and told you, “This is it, never change it!” Where does this logic come from? The rigid-mindedness devoid of any engagement is striking.

7 Likes

ARPG’s have changed quite a bit over the years, gaining quite a bit of complexity compared to earlier years. At this point they are as complex as they need to be as far as I’m concerned. All these changes you keep talking about are already available in rpg’s and have been for ages. If you want more than hack and slash you need to move to a genre that is built on that.

This game and ones like it are built to jump in and get to it. As you go you can go deeper tweaking your character and taking on more difficult challenges. If I want more depth I’ll play an rpg.

At first I thought I wrote this wall o text and forgot about it.

This post is too intelligent. Not many are going to appreciate it.

I like the complexity of the POE system and D3 system where at least each skill has 6 choices.

I hate dynamic dependent.

1 Like

I’m not convinced you understand the suggestions. This is very much hack-and-slash, just giving you more options in how to hack-and-slash. It’s meant to take the concept to a next level, not turn it into something else entirely. This is about liberating skills so you can use them on the go and more of them (ya know, ‘Play Your God.damn Way’) rather than be stuck with a few and have some cool combinations and greater variety with them. And yes, some are probably more involved than simple ARPG skills. I don’t see that as a bad thing. This genre is so backward, conservative, basic, and stagnant you don’t know what you’re missing. Complete lack of imagination. It’s not like I’m arguing for the replacement of the whole thing. I want to add on top of it and make this optional. Different strokes for different folks. It should be clear by now that the genre is not awfully successful. People probably largely bought and played Diablo IV like a AAA single-player campaign game. Where the hell do you see the success in “the real [ARPG] game” that is about you grinding like a monkey for some math bananas mashing one or two buttons doing the same thing non-stop? Do we play or watch a different game? Do you have any idea how far I had to scroll on Twitch to find Diablo IV and the veritable catalogue of games ahead of it? “Rob” could carry Elon Musk (who in turn streams this thing for hours on “X”) but he can’t carry 500 viewers. Interest in this game seemingly collapsed. Will more items change everything? How!? It’s not like many people play PoE either, let alone some of the other obscure crap out there. Is that not a sign? Not to mention PoE 2 could well eclipse this game. Would that not be a sign either? You can’t just squat on Diablo and expect it to be the golden egg because of the distant past. What in the world is simplifying item affixes going to accomplish in the big picture? Classic rearranging chairs on the Titanic.

Show me. I believe I’ve played more than one RPG and have never encountered real time combat like this.

:thinking:

…Iggi liked dynamic dependent. Iggi also wrote Blizzard developers are abused, the software is ancient and permits nothing, and management is useless. They also seem to have made a lot of money. Meanwhile someone at Microsoft is realizing they paid meme money ($69 billion) rather than reasonable valuation money.

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To my own credit I never said I liked nor disliked dynamic dependent or not, all depends on the context. I did state how Blizzard employees were being treated and the tools they use were limited though, through various personal interactions with employees that I’ve known over the years. This was further backed up by an article written by the New York Times I believe, or some other well known publication I forget the name of off the top of my head that dove into the inner workings at Blizzard.

It’s not difficult to make money off of video games, especially when you make them easy to get into for the average player and offer MTX. You cast a wide enough net, you’re bound to catch some fish.

However if you take a look at Activision’s increase in value over the years, there’s one company they bought out that has been making more money than all of Blizzard games combined to date. That company is King the maker of Candy Crush and other various mobile games. So it shouldn’t be any surprise that Blizzard made Diablo Immortal when it did. The mobile phone video game market is far bigger than the console/PC video game world will ever be.

Now yes, this came as a shock to the player base of Blizzard games, being a predominantly PC based audience, but realistically it’s where the money is, and the sad truth of the matter is that game is making some serious money. Microsoft didn’t necessarily buy Blizzard, they bought Activsion which came with Blizzard, but the smarter purchase was the fact King came with it, which no one looks at because ugh mobile games.

Money never lies my friends. Microsoft knew exactly what they were doing when they only talked about the Blizzard portion of their purchase publicly.

how about a more impactful title like:

“A treatise on the Diablo devs and their lies”

Don’t make me quote you. Dynamic dependent is combos.

Are you referring to the Washington Post article or something earlier?

What did they say?

Lies? Also, would you describe the post as being on skill trees or “on the Diablo devs”?

In that context, yes I did like your combo idea, absolutely, for Diabloish type games, wouldn’t say I would like to see it for all types of games, but it would be interesting in these games for sure.

That’s probably the one I’m thinking of, thank you.

Oh I just meant the fact that when they were interviewed about the acquisition of Activision, the only interviews they had were either about the acquisition itself and the various concerns of the deal, or it was just a back and forth between Bobby, Microsoft, and the reporters. Not a single one mentioned King in any of those interviews. All I’m saying is publicly this was a smart move on their part, no one would honestly care one way or the other that they were acquiring King.

The only reason I’ve paid attention to Activision so much is because I used to own stock in the company, and I kept track of the the ups and downs over the years. Obviously I was paid out on said stock when the acquisition of Activision happened, but I’ll just say I didn’t lose any money with said stock. :grinning:

JFC, this egotistical guy again squawking aboit combos saving the ARPG genre? Yeah dude, put training wheels on hotkeys to give players the illusion of choice and flexibility. Pretty sure some MMORPG tried this decades ago, maybe Everquest 2’s Beta and early launch? It was god awful.

I liked Everquest II system where you got many hotbars and skills and could customize extensively what went on hotbars. Each skill had grades you could earn as well but it was missing choice on altering those skills. A combo of EQ2 and customization of the skills would be solid. only 6 skills is very limiting. Thats why ppl just pick one skill and spam it. No room on hotbar to do much else.

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No no original Beta EQ2 that released with the character builder had a different system. Or was it Vanguard.

The point is I don’t want larger skill trees etc, like POE. D4 has plenty as far as I’m concerned there is enough complexity as it is. As far as rpg’s I don’t know what the current crop is, I’m not interested in playing those any more. When I was back the good ones were Dungeon master, EOB, and Ultima etc, they offered a lot more depth than the typical arpg, and had real time combat. Was it horde’s like Diablo has now? No, but it was still engaging and not a simple hack and slash.

At this point D4 is what I enjoy, I don’t care at all for POE, POE 2 will probably be even worse as far as I’m concerned. Torchlight 2 was okay for a short while, but my tastes run more to what D4 is.

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I think skill tree is ok. Yeah its old but it works well.

Problem in D4 is there is no skill tree, there is skill bush at best.

Every category should start at 5 skills at least. And aiming at 10 with expansions.

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Could’ve done better on the title but in my experience I haven’t come across an implementation like this in a live/real time action game. There are obviously games like BG3 that make a lot of skills available for use in combat but there it’s a mouse selection menu that is incompatible with a game like this. My ideas basically bridge the gap, enabling much greater variety and potential tactical use of skills in a quick action environment. Conceptually it’s a clear step forward for a genre that so desperately needs it, except these gaming communities are so dumb - and game developers are little smarter - that it’s an entirely uphill battle with small odds of success even though ultimately I’m clearly onto something. Are the community people doing their jobs at all? Can they even do an articulate summary?

Carrotfeets, the random poster who doesn’t understand what he/she/it/they are commenting on? Distinctive personality.

One, what is your understanding of training wheels and what do you compare them to here? Newsflash, the game you’re playing is a kid bicycle that has been rigged into an 18-wheeler so that no matter how abysmally stupid you are you can still ride it without effort. That’s how much Blizzard thinks of you. Two, I don’t know what illusions run in your head although I don’t doubt their existence, but in actual reality enabling a limited set of buttons to execute many more skills is a prerequisite for greater choice and flexibility. If I was a teacher today they would probably put me in jail by the end of the first school day.

And how do you put more than 6 skills on 6 buttons? I am certain there is a parallel with the human brain here judging by the hardware some people are running on.

My point is these trees can be modular enough that you never have to bother with them. As for what you actually want, I suspect you’ll find out very quickly how mistaken you are in practice. That’s the funny thing.

They can give you 666 skills straight out of Satan’s furry butthole. You still have 6 buttons for them. That’s what a fixed choice skill tree is. Each button is one skill. A dynamic choice skill tree multiplies the number of skills each button is. Do you geniuses grasp the distinction?

By the way, on the point of the dynamic dependent choice skill tree, I was reading a post from a casual perspective and came across this:

This is basically built-in. Those uninhibited nerds at PoE 2 will likely end up owning this game in a number of aspects, but from what I understand they have just as little of a sense of what makes a game fun.

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Its an interesting approach. Which if we look at the evolution of the Diablo series of “skills” it changes on each iteration of the series.

Diablo 1 - Didn’t really have a “skill tree” it was mostly Spells which had Magic Requirements in order to use / learn

Diablo 2 - utilized a skill tree which each class had 3 tabs these gained in power the more points you placed into the skill which you needed to unlock certain skills to progress further in the tree. (synergies was a later added thing to the tree)

Diablo 3 - Well it wasn’t really a tree they just automatically unlocked after reaching a certain level and then you were able to augment the skill via rune.

Diablo 4 - Attempted to bring back the “tree” from Diablo 2 but in a different style. But just feels lacking with “choices”

All of them had its pros and cons. But the premise of having choices to define your character is what the skill tree purpose serves in the ARPG. Its funny you take D3 for example you had a decent amount of “choices” via the runes to alter a skill. But ironically even with the choices or runes the game is considered highly of cookie cutter builds. Which in reality 1,2,3,4 all have cookie cutter builds.

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