[Mob design] - Balancing issues

PC General Discussion
1

Perhaps a bit premature but I can see this being an issue in S4 (considering the data/info that we’ve already gotten)

Let’s agree on some “principles” first, let’s see if we can agree on at least some “norm” to where/how things should work

Below there are several points, last one is a suggestion, don’t necessarily need to take that one into consideration but it would be useful to discuss

1 - No boss should have more than 100 Million HP (up to 150M HP for only/exclusively T200 ubers)
2 - No build nor gear nor mechanic nor whatever “bug” should deal more than 1 Million damage (2H considered here also). This means all the stacking/feedback-looping/snapshotting must be adhered and limited to a cap also
3 - No build should perform 10x less than best build (Tier S) available
4 - No monster hit should deal more than 60k damage per hit (armor and resistances should reduce this to a properly-reasonable number), and no DoT should do more than 6k/tick (~24k/sec)
5 - If game is easy with caps at 5 => revisit point 1 and reduce DPS cap at #2 further
6 - HC is irrelevant until points 1-6 are dealt with in a proper manner
7 - Not every problem in the game should be damage-solvable
8 - In order to make “7” work I suggest the following: Remove Increased Health and put Faster Cast Rate or Increased Aggression. Expand this concept a bit further (Resistant to CC), or at least put Armor and Resistances instead of “Increased Health” modification

The reason why this is important is cause we’ve ended up into S1 territory of dis/balance once again. Some builds hitting 100k at most with 2H gear, some hitting billions

And to be frank - how is it even possible for an “elemental surge” affix which has 40% chance to hit 40k end up hitting billions ?

I mean we’re basically back at S1. Sorry to say this but it is important to note - until that’s not been fixed, we’ll get back to this same issue/s over and over

P.S. did a math/proposal on mob DR scaling per level (think should be taken a look at)

Mob DR scaling per level (changes every 10 levels)

[1-10] 0.35% DR per level; 1.035^10 = 1.411 [1.411x Total]
[11-20] 0.45% DR per level; 1.045^10 = 1.553 [2.191x Total]
[21-30] 0.55% DR per level; 1.055^10 = 1.708 [3.742x Total]
[31-40] 0.65% DR per level; 1.065^10 = 1.871 [7.002x Total]
[41-50] 0.75% DR per level; 1.075^10 = 2.061 [14.432x Total]
[51-60] 0.85% DR per level; 1.085^10 = 2.261 [32.632x Total]
[61-70] 0.95% DR per level; 1.095^10 = 2.478 [80.861x Total]
[71-80] 1.105% DR per level; 1.105^10 = 2.71 [219.133x Total]
[81-90] 1.115% DR per level; 1.115^10 = 2.97 [650.827x Total]
[91-100] 1.2% DR per level; 1.2^10 = 6.192 [4030x Total]

Repeat same Cycle from start for 100-200

[101-110] 1.035^10 = 1.411 * 4030 [5686.33%DR = 56.86x]
[111-120] 1.045^10 = 1.553 * 5686 [8,830%DR = 88.83x]
[121-130] 1.055^10 = 1.708 * 8830 [15,083%DR = 150.83x]
[131-140] 1.065^10 = 1.871 * 15083 [28,221%DR = 282.21x]
[141-150] 1.075^10 = 2.061 * 28221 [58,163%DR = 581.63x]
[151-160] 1.085^10 = 2.261 * 58163 [131,507%DR=1,315x]
[161-170] 1.095^10 = 2.478 * 131507 [325,874%DR=32.587x]
[171-180] 1.105^10 = 2.71 * 325874 [883,121%DR=88.312x]
[181-190] 1.115^10 = 2.97 * 883121 [2,622,869%DR=262,287x]
[191-200] 1.115^10 = 6.192 * 883121 [16,240,80%DR=1,624kx]

In other words - lvl100 mobs would take 40.30x less damage (instead of hitting 80.6k you’ll just hit 2000 damage), and lvl200 ones would take 1,624kx less (instead of hitting 1,624,000, you’ll just hit 1000)

2

Last Epoch already has this Adaptive Damage Reduction on player damage when fighting the boss. To prevent boss get one shooter and force player to play the mechanic in fight. This is the main reason why LE loss majority of players and at rock bottom now. D4 will never implement this damage limiting mechanism as lessons already learned from other game.

3

i agree with many points of your thread, i just note the things i dont agree with.

impossible to achieve. we arent playing some sandbox game here, there will always be metas, and people who discover seriously overpowere synergies between paragon nodes, gears and spells.

i disagree there as well, especially since we can become almost invincible anyway, there should be ways for players to be killed. even if it results in a one shot.

anyways, we arent back to s1, for example, babarians were rock bottom in s1. i understand your concerns, but heck, it was the ptr. i hope the devs got enough data from it ^^

2 Likes
4

LE did more changes than that

They like halved mob density than it used to be and added more summoners instead (something I thought D4 ought supposed to do long ago but whatever)

They also removed bad initial mobs in act 1/3 (act 1 pre-release, act 3 official) but added nastier ones at act 2/4. They also obviously increased mob damage as well (never died to a regular skeleton archer pre-release as opposed to after it)

e.t.c.

One might argue those are ALL reasons people might not like the game as much as they used to be, but still adds better health/longevity to the game

As for the ADR vs Bosses wasn’t aware, thx, good to know that one

The point being didn’t think of it as an “artificial cap” but rather scale down damage intake to those caps (1M damage or about as 2H with top-tier gear)

As for the feedback-loop in terms of A empowers B then empowers A back and that loop being stackable ? - yeah, that has to be limited cause it’s hard to properly balance otherwise

Nope, players should NEVER be allowed to become almost invincible

That is the core of the problem, the more power you get the more power the game has to “cheat” to counteract that, and that’s where we ended up having the problem

Did a math on mob DR scaling per level (think should be taken a look at)

Mob DR scaling per level (changes every 10 levels)

[1-10] 0.35% DR per level; 1.035^10 = 1.411 [1.411x Total]
[11-20] 0.45% DR per level; 1.045^10 = 1.553 [2.191x Total]
[21-30] 0.55% DR per level; 1.055^10 = 1.708 [3.742x Total]
[31-40] 0.65% DR per level; 1.065^10 = 1.871 [7.002x Total]
[41-50] 0.75% DR per level; 1.075^10 = 2.061 [14.432x Total]
[51-60] 0.85% DR per level; 1.085^10 = 2.261 [32.632x Total]
[61-70] 0.95% DR per level; 1.095^10 = 2.478 [80.861x Total]
[71-80] 1.105% DR per level; 1.105^10 = 2.71 [219.133x Total]
[81-90] 1.115% DR per level; 1.115^10 = 2.97 [650.827x Total]
[91-100] 1.2% DR per level; 1.2^10 = 6.192 [4030x Total]

Repeat same Cycle from start for 100-200

[101-110] 1.035^10 = 1.411 * 4030 [5686.33%DR = 56.86x]
[111-120] 1.045^10 = 1.553 * 5686 [8,830%DR = 88.83x]
[121-130] 1.055^10 = 1.708 * 8830 [15,083%DR = 150.83x]
[131-140] 1.065^10 = 1.871 * 15083 [28,221%DR = 282.21x]
[141-150] 1.075^10 = 2.061 * 28221 [58,163%DR = 581.63x]
[151-160] 1.085^10 = 2.261 * 58163 [131,507%DR=1,315x]
[161-170] 1.095^10 = 2.478 * 131507 [325,874%DR=32.587x]
[171-180] 1.105^10 = 2.71 * 325874 [883,121%DR=88.312x]
[181-190] 1.115^10 = 2.97 * 883121 [2,622,869%DR=262,287x]
[191-200] 1.115^10 = 6.192 * 883121 [16,240,80%DR=1,624kx]

In other words - lvl100 mobs would take 40.30x less damage (instead of hitting 80.6k you’ll just hit 2000 damage), and lvl200 ones would take 1,624kx less (instead of hitting 1,624,000, you’ll just hit 1000)

Once THAT has been dealt with and no billions and trillions of damage & HP don’t think the game should “cheat” it’s way to one-shot as well