Minion rant and issue moving into season 3

The Campfire chat today has made it abundantly clear that they don’t see Minions as an “End Game” or dedicated build path. Adam Jackson said that they will be receiving another small numbers buff but no rework as they are busy with other projects. As someone who has spent a majority of Season 2 play testing Minions I just want to share their viability, purpose, and direction, with the community. I feel like not only the devs but the player base needs to understand the issue it faces and why it needs to be revamped to become viable.

  • Utility: Most of the supposed utility from minions simply does not work as intended. Things that should work seem to do well on the target dummy but have a very different outcome in the open world.

    • Reapers do not spawn corpses as intended.

    • Bone mages do not provide worthwhile fortify giving only base while necrotic carapace gives maximum.

    • Shadow mages do not proc shadowblight in the open world or on dummy and they do not show terror and or gloom activation though it does seem to be activating.

    • Skirmishers still do the same damage as reapers and defenders even though they lose 15% of their health for the 30% damage increase.

    • Defenders and Bone golem are still bugged and sometimes do not get the benefit of minions inherit thorns.

    • Abhorrent decrepify still triggers off thorns from minions but specifically only works with some choices and not others. This is a working as intended bug?

    • Spiked armor still only gives 30% of its value to minions and scales with level not weapon damage as stated (2388 at level 100).

  • Damage: They simply can not clear end game on their own. The most damage I have gotten out of my Golem as a pure summoner build is 150,000 in fully optimized 925+25 gear. Warriors are hitting for 25,000 and mages 40,000. Why does this matter? Because it goes to show it isn’t a direct trade off compared to simply sacrificing them.

    • Minion attack speed caps at 100%, any additional amount does nothing for the minions and is wasted meaning even taking unyielding commander’s aspect is a waste.

    • Minions get 30% from all multipliers that are not universal. Damage to close, distant, amplify damage, fueled by death, death’s embrace, blighted aspect, etc, all only give 30% of their listed amount to minions. When you couple this with 30% weapon damage, crit, etc, they just don’t scale at all.

    • Iron maiden is flagged as thorns, can’t crit, and doesn’t get a majority of the players multipliers in the same way as other skills. This means a skill meant to assist thorns builds does less than a basic skill. Even a level 19 Iron maiden does less damage than decompose with the same multipliers.

    • Minions do not have a keystone thanks to attack speed being capped at 100% and they do not count as blood, bone, or darkness, skills. You fundamentally do not have a way to synergize or scale them.

    • Mastery does not benefit from +skills. With a 30% base weapon damage as a skill “less than basic skills” and mastery only increasing the value of that 30% instead of increasing the actual skills scaling means they will never be WT4 ready.

    • Army of the Dead is worthless. Unyielding commnader’s aspect is completely wasted thanks to the attack speed cap, the damage is lack luster, the lucky hit chance is ok but hits on world destructibles and objects doesn’t trigger, the corpse gen is a few seconds of hewed flesh and isn’t good utility wise. Overall it is a bad decision to run this ability while using or not using minions.

  • Survival: I put together a toughness calculator to see why minions were struggling so hard to survive. Here is what I found out.

    • Armor: While it is possible to get golem to the ADR “Armor Damage Reduction” cap for AoZ at 14,200. it is nearly impossible to hit this value outside of running 5 sources of TA% “total armor percent affix”. What this means is that choosing to wear unique items which you would do to increase your main skills damage while using minions means they die to one shots regardless. This is also true for NMD 100 and explains why so many people say their army starts to die around level 80.

    • Resistance: You get way more than you need. Minions get your total resistance not the cap of 70% meaning you may have 120-200% resistance to an element that gets -50% from the difficulty and capped at 70%. Minions take from that larger pool at 30%. Meaning most of the extra resistance paragon, mage glyph, etc, is usually wasted.

    • Minion Maximum Life: This hurts the players itemization choices along with being a double edged sword. On one hand it increases skeletal priest healing and allows them to survive damage over time that hits for less than 30% MML. On the other hand it also means the damage reduction minions get from the old passive “death’s defense” which is now standard, gets worse the more you stack. They take more damage overall from single hits and damage over time that would be reduced by 70% because you now have more health which is effectively disabling that 70% DR threshold.

    • Damage Reduction: Actually seems to be really good and they are able to hit high values. However “Aspect of Hardened Bone” takes another unique / legendary slot from the necromancer.

  • A.I.: Anyone who has played minions understands the frustration here.

    • Golem: Will straight up eat its cooldown if you use the active while it is spawning. Server lag, terrain, etc, all affect how long this window is and makes it hard to time it so that you don’t waste a skill on your bar.

    • Mages: Struggle to attack monsters near the edge of your screen. This often leads to them simply not doing damage. So there are times where you effectively have a skill on your bar that is well only working half of the time. This is a huge issue that makes them worthless from a utility point of view and damage.

    • Warriors: No focus fire and reapers being the only AoE “Area of Effect” option means some monsters will actively heal the damage that they deal because they are being dps checked. This is a general issue with minion A.I. in general. But it can mean between mage and warrior A.I. you can have a skill that gets stat checked by a group of elites or monsters making it a dead skill.

    • Invulnerable: They still sometimes attack a shield, barrier, or do not attack a destructible obstacle. Using decompose or reap to destroy a wall with hundreds of thousands or millions of health is tedious at best. Having half or all of your army attack something that can not die makes them a dead skill on your bar.

    • Pathing: They are the worst missile in the game. While you can direct bone spear, blight, bone spirit, etc, You are reliant on your damaging minion skill to find its way through crowd control, obstacles, A.I., etc, to even begin its dps “damage per second” on a target. Minions could deal the same damage as S2 Hota and still be worse than other skills. Why? because the macro involved with controlling them gates their clear speed potential massively.

  • Other Options Choices: It is a choice to sacrifice your army. There is no benefit to running them as is.

    • Sacrifice: You will always get more value from simply not running them. You save two skill slots, skills, etc.

    • Utility: Minions do not provide nearly the functionality of the sacrifice bonuses. The things minions give is essence regen, corpse generation, damage reduction, and a worse version of fortify. Most of these are either bugged and not working or an overall worse option.

    • Damage: Because of the problems listed above and other things, they will never be able to provide the same damage output as a single multiplier from book of the dead sacrifice bonuses. Plain and simple you are nerfing yourself by taking either raise skeleton or golem.

    • Unique vs Unique: Mendeln is now outclassed by X’fal’s. There is no way to hit the same damage value from Mendeln as you have to give up sacrifice bonuses and 2 skill slots. X’fals will always deal more making Mendeln a choice to be worse. Deathspeaker’s Pendant is worse than regular blood surge for the same reasons listed. This is without talking about how banished lord’s talisman sharing the same slot means straight up giving up a 120%[x] damage bonus so you can try to make a worse build work… Neither of the minion uniques are worth running and it is a compounding issue.

    • Blood mist vs blood golem: The 15% damage reduction could be worthwhile if we didn’t have to give up the damage and utility of simply running blood mist over it. There is no reason to choose golem and invest an additional 9 skill points along with taking the cult leader board to keep it alive in the end game. There is simply no logical trade off here.

    • Raise skeleton vs everything: Pick your poison. Corpse tendrils, bone prison, blood mist, etc. They do not provide the same utility and definitely do not provide the same damage as any other skill point. They are objectively worse than literally any other option including essence regeneration from cold mages.

  • Conclusion: There is just no reason to play a minion build if you want to complete the end game. Even if we get another “small number buff” tomorrow in the patch notes. You are willfully choosing to give up massive damage multipliers and survival along with skill points and paragon just to pretend you aren’t an emo version of the sorcerer. Not only are they not designed to kill things at the same level even with their unique choices but you are losing far far too much. Until the developers lose their bias against them and give us a proper rework, they will continue to be a noob trap.

  • While I love them personally and have gone to great lengths to try and make them viable, there is simply no way to do it currently. The community deserves to know that raise skeleton and golem are noob traps and will do nothing but artificially increase the difficulty of the game for yourself. Please do not play minions unless you are willing to acknowledge this and are trying to under perform as a necromancer in the end game.

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Here we go again… the Summoner with no Ring of Mendeln.

Mages are useful for me becoz they CC mobs. The most important thing for me about them is to ensure they are enough in numbers to proc the RIng of Mendeln. BTW, minions thorns could proc a lucky hit.

Endgame means NM100. It means you should be fully geared by then. It means you have Uniques to help the Summoner build and these Uniques are Mendeln and Xfal. If you dont have them, you are dead. With you cant clear Endgame is becoz you are not using the Uniques for Summoner. You choose to gimp yourself. It’s your fault. Not the game’s fault.

It’s so important to me. There are some occasions where Minions could be overwhelmed and they will die. That’s where Army of the Dead comes in… to get them back. I also have a reserve… Dead Minions disable me to use Ring of Mendeln. My reserve is the Xfal ring that still can do damage without minions.

Minions are more robusts on me. My necro is easier to die than my minions.

Looks like it’s working as intended. Tendril them all to one place. That’s why Ring of Sacrilegious Soul is very important on clearing Dungeons with Summoner becoz you have a Free Tendril. FYI.

That was Season 2. I havent seen Season 3.

It depends on you. I am not after with the leaderboard becoz I am Casual. Beating AoZ tier 1 and NM100’s is enough for me. My PentaDot does 1000x more damage than my Mendeln Xfal Summoner on Season 2 but the Summoner build is more fun to me.

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You are an actual troll. The fact that you have been this involved with minions since beta and still parroting Season 0 speculation is so frustrating. We know the sacrifice bonuses are better, we know they can’t trigger lucky hit, we know you are giving up damage reduction, we know that Mendeln and Deathspeaker are worse options. There is no defending minions from a lucky hit chance standpoint alone. You can not convince me or anyone else that they are a 1 for 1 choice between sacrifice and running them because the math simply doesn’t pan out.

Also, mages provide less CC than 1 point in Crippling Darkness or using Frostburn. This is also without talking about Crowd Control diminishing returns after each stagger making it hard to trigger again. Not to mention why would you ever need to cc a monster when you could just kill it before you need to stagger it a second time?

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Becoz you play differently. My main weapon are my rings. I need CC to buy more time for me to proc the rings. D4’s Summoner main weapon is not the Minion’s damage. It’s on the Rings’ Detonation damage.

That’s how Summoner is played since Season 0 in D4. Depending much just on your minions is… the gameplay at low levels. At high levels, you have to use BIGGER GUNS. And those guns are the RINGS.

I bet you that you have never beaten NM100 with your Summoner. Becoz you play it wrong. Dungeon clearing with Summoner is all about CC. That’s why Ring of Sacrilegious Soul is godly with Mendeln ring on NM100… for the extra Tendril.

Mendeln and Xfal goes better when with SIngle Target Big Bosses like FInal Boss of NM100 or level 154 The Butcher.

You are just angry on how Season 2 went. You rather sacrifice the minions than having them. On Season 1, the choice was to use the Minions and enjoy 100 Million Damage from Barber-Mendeln. And you would humilate Bone Spear meta-damage. On Season 3, we dont know yet. I cant judge Season 3 when it’s not out yet.

I did nmd 100 as a pure summoner and used mendeln for AoZ. You are boosted lol. I have made a minion dps and toughness calculator. I know the math I’ve playtested the builds.

Mendeln will always be worse than x’fal. There is no way to make up the difference in skill points and sacrifice bonuses. This of course is without mentioning the fact that minions cap at 15 with amulet so usually 14 total. And you can have more than 14 dots ticking at a time all triggering lucky hit PROCS at 50% instead of 10%. Ring of Mendeln is the wheelchair version of X’fal. It can never be better because its mechanically worse and gives up too much paragon and multipliers for minion decoration.

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The Minions or its attacks are not ticking. They are not DoTs. The so called PentaDoT Necro build has 5 (Penta) DoTs: Blight, Blighted Corpse Explosions, Blood Soak aspect’s Desecrated Ground, Ultimate Shadow Aspect converting Bone Storm into a Shadow DoT and Shadowblight.

With Summoner, you have limited slots for Aspects as +2 Mage and +2 Warrior filled 2 slots already. Disobedience, Explosive Mist, Blighted, Grasping Veins… that’s 6 slots. If you use Temerity and Black River, you wont be able to get the other 2 Aspects that gives DoT. You would only have 3 Dots ticking. You cant use the full power of PentaDoT when with Summoner.

You can use Xfal instead of Mendeln. But if I do that, why use Minions? I was already with PentaDoT when the forums cried that Summoner is broken. So I tried Mendeln+Xfal and it did work. But Mendeln+Sacrilegious is more robust on clearing dungeons like NM100 or AoZ.

Xfal is great on Season 2. But it made Mendeln Summoner useless as it’s better to use PentaDoT with Xfal. We dont know how it would fare on Season 3.

But Pure Summoner is out of the question… non-existing to D4 since Season 0.

I doubt this. Your answer above is showing that you have no clue to play the Mendeln Ring. Maybe you played the Pure Summoner and just added the Ring with no idea about its gameplay. It could work.

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You need to crush your ego a bit. You make a lot of claims about other people for no reason.

I am sorry about that. I am still playing Mendeln Summoner right now this late of the Season. And i am still getting pwned if i am not super careful at NM100 or AoZ tier 1.

I am abusing the strat of overdoing CC just to beat it. And you are proclaiming you beat NM100 or AoZ as Mendeln Summoner without giving importance to CC. That’s where i caught you.

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Caught me? What are you talking about? Yes I did AoZ, no I did not do tier 25 lol. Mendeln starts falling off hard at around 10-12. Nmd 100 is and always has been a joke. I did nmd 100 on my pure summoner build.

Summoners are in a bad place but quite literally almost any build can do nmd 100, maybe even iron maiden.

you did aoz 10-12 on your minionmancer, solo? or a t100 nmd? :o
too bad you didnt capture it in a stream =(

just as an addition, the only minionmancer i know did like tier 13, in a group. so yea, its really sad you didnt capture your adventure :c

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Great, another season where the class fantasy of a Necromancer (SUMMONS) is not viable. WTF Blizzard?! Not sure who’s idea it was to make the most powerful Necro builds have NO SUMMONS. When was that actually a thing? Like making all the viable Druid builds all about Lycanthropy. Sorry, but that’s not the Druidic class fantasy. It’s about controlling nature, the elements, forest animals. That’s my fave Druid class, and what the OG Druids were all about in games. Rogues I kinda give a pass to, I prefer the ranged Rogue (Archer etc), but it’s not endgame competitive, so i’m forced to melee, no thanks. Thanks Blizz, another season where I’m going to be forced to go with a 4th or 5th choice class cos you messed up my fave top 3, or play another game. Sigh.

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You’re wasting your time arguing with that one. I appreciate the effort, though.

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