Lets talk about THORNS ON NECROMANCERs

Hello everyone

This can be a little big long, but lets talk about thorns necromancer…

I’ve been playing as a thorn’s necromancer since S1, always improving and adapting my build as new updates, seasons, and hotfixes come for the game.

Being my favorite archetype (as well as that of many other players), for me it was extremely fun to see some of the hardest bosses in the game dying relatively quickly to the thorns of my minions and golem, even though the build was always considered Tier C, or at best of all cases on B, while the other archetypes (bones, shadow, blood, Mendeln Minion, Critical Damage Minions) managed to do their millions and billions of damage with an abysmal cadence.

With the launch of Vessel of Hatred and the promised changes, thorn-based necromancer builds have all but died out. Because unlike other classes, such as barbs and SB, the necromancer’s thorns rely on stacking %armor and %thorns on as much gear as possible. And both have been heavily modified.

The fact is that, since the necromancer cannot stack his thorns like before, in addition to greatly reduced armor stack in the current state of the game, this archetype are even weaker than before, not even being able to face Torment IV with adequate efficiency. In short, this is the only thorn’s archetype of the game that loses damage as the difficulties increase, as it does not have decent items or multipliers to scale its thorns. The bone golem, which is the main weapon of the thorns necromancer, uses the armor overcap to deal damage during his taunts, but the other minions purely use the thorns for this, forcing the necro to divide himself between both, which as I already mentioned, were severely weakened.

Let’s take into account that, since thorns do not does critical damage, thorns necromancers give up of any critical chance and critical damage to only strengthen their defenses and their thorns.

We also don’t have any class items or aspects that really benefit this build in Season 6:

The Razorplate, despite usually being the key piece of the build, ends up losing space to legendary armors that can provide + ranks to golem, more armor, more life, more everything.

The Needleflare aspect is simply not effective. It doesn’t work good with minions. It requires the player to take direct damage for the thorns spam to happen, being totally inefficient in any situation because the player’s thorns causes a low damage. I tested it in dungeons, on bosses, in tides, hordes, etc. It’s terrible.

Sticker-Thought conflicts with Juggernaut’s aspect, which despite having been severely nerfed, is still more effective than sticker-thought.

%Golem inherit thorns was removed from game (?). What the point?

We currently have exclusive items and aspects for shadow minions, physical damage minions (mendeln), blood minions, but the thorn’s aspects has very far from a good to compete with any other thing. By the way, if I can, I would like to suggest the idea of ​​a new unique item for necromancers, based on the mechanic of thorns, but which would allow alternative builds to use it as well.


Item type: Amulet
Suggested Name: Chain of Razored Bones

+20~30% Intelligence
+4~6 level Spiked Armor
+1~2 Level Hellbent Commander
+Minion Inherit 30~50% of your thorns

Unique power: Your minions cant crit or Overpower, but get 20-50% of her thorns how extra damage on hit. Additionally, if you choose to sacrifice your skeleton mages, each sacrificed skeleton mage increases the maximum number of skeleton warriors by 1, up to a maximum of 3 additional warriors [You cant have more than 8 summons (golem included) and your sacrifice bonus are 25% weak].


Please look with love at the thorns builds. They are extremely fun, but the nerfs and the neglect are killing it.

Sorry for my poor english. Is not my native language.

3 Likes

Remember when the Skeletal Defenders used to have additional Thorns before it was removed? I think the Defenders should become a Thorns minion again by giving them additional Thorns based on their Total Amor just like the Bone Golem gets with their active ability. This change would synergize well with our existing Thorns build as we are already forced to stack as much Total Armor in our build as possible.

Right now, there’s not a lot use for the Defenders after their rework. Every Thorns build uses the Reapers as it’s simply a better option. As the Defenders were originally conceived to be the minion of choice for a Thorns build, I hope Blizzard takes another attempt at reworking them so that they can be a Thorns centric minion again.

3 Likes

U’re right.

I think Defenders really should getr same mechanic of Bone Golem, but without taunt and only 100% armor how thorns to mantain bone golem on center of damage.

The Bone golem armor conversion should be passive and his taunt make the bonus dupplicate.

1 Like

Updating Razorplate would help a lot I guess - remove two Thorns affixes and replace them with Max Life and a huge Max Armor while doubling the two remaining Thorns affixes to compensate.

This helps SB more than anything else…

Tying thorns/damage to total armor is a nice concept but it just isn’t reasonable with the game mechanics. Getting to T4 gives you a -1000 armor penalty that directly cuts your damage output. There is nothing in the game even remotely close to compensating for that loss in power for a thorns necro. You have to run Juggernaut or Sticker-Thought just to cancel out that damage penalty (and they don’t even fully cancel it).

Perhaps we need a unique shield or something that has a unique power that says "Gain 1000 armor. For every 1000 armor you have, your/your minions thorns do x10% more damage up to x50%). I also think “%chance for thorns to deal double damage” should be a thing.

2 Likes

Thats a nice alternative. And it could be an aspect too. It would be simpler to implement, too.

I really like the game’s penalty for torment. But necro getting a penalty to thorns damage just for existing is absurd to me. And “inherit thorns” temper are completely inutile on all my tries in season 6 after start a torment I and above.

Another throuble (on my opinion) with armor how thorns is: U have “something close to 0” thorns dmg if ur golem isnt taunting. This is a concept like overpower dmg, but severely more weak.

The -1000 armor penalty doesn’t cut your thorns damage. The thorns damage is calculated by the armor value before penalty. But I agree, that thorns necro is in a bad spot. I have a very close to final golem thorns, but only able to do 2-3b per proc. This needs to be at least 20x buffed to remotely compete with other necro builds.

2 Likes

I think he cut yep if u use bone golem (The main thing to a thorns build). U loses active 2k thorns on TIV because 1k armor = 2k thorns during taunt.

Ive tested many times. with and without compensation…

With compensation (added 1000k armor post TIV), my damage is same on TIII without compensation

But maybe im wrong and my tests can be fail. Ill test again.

Per my test, bone golem attacked by dummies at T1 and T4 gave me the same thorn proc numbers (counting the highest numbers to avoid confusion by missing a couple of small multipliers).

2 Likes

I didn’t know that! That’s awesome information you provided. I just assumed our Thorns damage was nerfed from the Torment Armor penalty.

Yes I’m not seeing any damage numbers higher than three billion from my Bone Golem either, but at least they’re fairly consistent and aren’t relying on any RNG mechanics to do it. I do agree Thorns needs a major buff for Minions in order to be considered anything but a niche, off meta build.

So my tests failed and im betrayed myself. Ill test with some more caution on next time.

Anyway, this is fantastic! Thx for the great info, my friend.

I personally love petless thorns. Don’t get me wrong, watching a boss pop because it hits all your minions at once is great, but being an affliction-dealing spiky tank is far and away my favourite in the game.

What I would LOVE is something like hack from D3, but only for classes that aren’t already specced up to output massive thorn damage (like spiritborn). Though this is only because spiritborn could really unbalance the hell out of a weapon based around thorns.

Ie:

The Spike
1h weapon
+20% Attack Speed
+15% Damage Reduction
+15% Damage to Vulnerable Foes
+5% Lucky Hit Chance
+100 All Stats

All skills apply thorns on hit (50% for AoE/multi-target skills, 25% for DoT effects). Thorns can lucky hit.
The Damage Per Hit stat on this weapon is (70%) weaker than normal.

I like in Diablo 4 how there is an emphasis on thorns being a stat that ‘assists’ and complements builds. Giving thorns lucky hit functionality while making the lucky hits (and non-thorn damage) weaker would mean a ton of fun build paths.

1 Like

I love this too… But in D4, your minions are your multipliers, because you don’t have any passives (sacrifices should be, right?) to increase your thorns to barb level or something like it.